A3s River decision 2-10 spread live game

[bapazian]

I'm playing 2-10 spread at Grand Casino Mille Lacs and I have a tough river decision here against a solid player.

Hero is deal Ad3d in MP4

UTG calls (2)
1 fold
Mp2 calls (2)
1folds
Hero calls (2)
1 fold
Button Calls (2)
SB Completes
BB Checks

12 dollar pot
Flop comes 3s 10c 2c

Everyone checks

Turn Ah

Checks around to me and I bet 10 Villian on the button, a pretty solid Player i have played with several times flat calls my bet and everyone folds

River Kh

I bet 10 Villian Raises to 20.... What do I do in this spot obviously its a question between call or raise but what would you guys do in this spot.

To give some more info on this hand the villian will generally raise probably his top 7% of his hands and he is an averagely agressive player. My image is TAG but I have been caught bluffing twice recently.

Also If I played any other street wrong please comment.

[BJK]

I see the dastardly $2/$10 game has spread to Mille Lacs as well. Do they still spread any fixed limit games there? Or any good spread limit games that actually have a little bit of wiggle-room with bet size (a good $1-$60 game would be nice, as $60 is the maximum allowed bet in Minnesota).

You're probably not going to garner a lot of advice playing $2/$10 on these forums (at least I haven't in the past). The upper midwest is about the only place where this game is popular. I've played a ton of $2/$10 in the past with great success, but I've also determined that it is, by far, my least favorite form of poker.

To your post, the table would have to be extremely passive for me to even consider seeing a flop with a suited A-rag in a $2/$10 game, even one off the button. These hands are poison in these games simply because you often will not have the pot odds to call with your draw on the flop, and your draw will often not catch any type of implied odds if it hits. Say you flop the flush draw, the SB comes out betting $10, and action folds to you. You really should fold that spot, but consider that you call because you think your A is good if you hit it (huge reverse implied odds if you're wrong). The turn misses again, and the small blind bets again. You still don't have the proper pot odds to call with your flush draw.

The small blind/large pot structure of the game make it one that should be played extremely tight. The blinds aren't worth fighting over, and one big pot can turn any night into a good winner.

The thing that makes me timid about this spot is the fact that almost every set I've ever seen flopped in a $2/$10 game is slow-played until the river. The only non-slow-played hand that you can't beat, I think, is JcQc, but his call on the turn with four people to act after him makes me nervous. I think I just call here unless I have a pretty dang good read. I think you're probably going to be ahead more than 50% of the time, but I also think that if you raise with the loser, it's going to cost you an additional bet.

[bapazian]

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I see the dastardly $2/$10 game has spread to Mille Lacs as well. Do they still spread any fixed limit games there? Or any good spread limit games that actually have a little bit of wiggle-room with bet size (a good $1-$60 game would be nice, as $60 is the maximum allowed bet in Minnesota).

You're probably not going to garner a lot of advice playing $2/$10 on these forums (at least I haven't in the past). The upper midwest is about the only place where this game is popular. I've played a ton of $2/$10 in the past with great success, but I've also determined that it is, by far, my least favorite form of poker.

To your post, the table would have to be extremely passive for me to even consider seeing a flop with a suited A-rag in a $2/$10 game, even one off the button. These hands are poison in these games simply because you often will not have the pot odds to call with your draw on the flop, and your draw will often not catch any type of implied odds if it hits. Say you flop the flush draw, the SB comes out betting $10, and action folds to you. You really should fold that spot, but consider that you call because you think your A is good if you hit it (huge reverse implied odds if you're wrong). The turn misses again, and the small blind bets again. You still don't have the proper pot odds to call with your flush draw.

The small blind/large pot structure of the game make it one that should be played extremely tight. The blinds aren't worth fighting over, and one big pot can turn any night into a good winner.

The thing that makes me timid about this spot is the fact that almost every set I've ever seen flopped in a $2/$10 game is slow-played until the river. The only non-slow-played hand that you can't beat, I think, is JcQc, but his call on the turn with four people to act after him makes me nervous. I think I just call here unless I have a pretty dang good read. I think you're probably going to be ahead more than 50% of the time, but I also think that if you raise with the loser, it's going to cost you an additional bet.

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Very good reply and in retrospect your read on the situation is the one I should have made (actual results and my river decision will be posted later).

The first part of your post though is what really intrigued me to reply though. You are completely right about your observation in these games. The pot odds in these games just go down the drain considering the blinds are so small in comparison to the bets being made. This does make a lot of these hands not nearly worth as much even though I can often see the flop cheaply.

With this particular game they were very passive and they would often go to far with hands. So even though 10 was the standard lead out on the flop it would often be multiway to the turn. That is why I played this hand in the position I did.

As for whats spread at mille lacs limit is restricted to 2/4 and 3/6. 2-10 goes on the busier nights usually thursday-sunday and sometimes during the week but usually it'll just be 2/4 and 3/6. These are debately worth playing because the play is absolutely terrible, loose passive all the way but the rake structure probably kills long term profit (10%rake up to 4 with a 1 dollar bad beat toke and then whatever tip you give to teh dealer). Mille lacs will spread 4-30 and 5-60 spread games. Neither of these are really to my liking because of the blinds and the buyins (2/4 and 2/5 300 and 600 dollar min buy ins). I would love to get a 1/2 blind 2-60 game going bc it would probably play much like a 1/2 NL game.

As for the 1-60 game your talking about do you know any casino in MN that often spreads a game liek this? I would love to play something like this but havnt seen it anywhere. Maybe I could con the folks at canterbury to get a list going for that (they probably wouldn't buy it though).

Anyways thanks for the thoughts you basically affirmed some suspicions I've had about this game after playing it a few times.

[TheHip41]

i just call

[jetfish]

Just call the river.

[Xhad]

I know you said he's solid, but he's made at least one mistake this hand, except maybe if he slowplayed A2s (or some other Ax non-2pair hand). What else could he have really? AK should raise on the button, flopped sets should bet the flop and basically everything else should fold the turn (KT should do both).

I just call.

[BJK]

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Very good reply and in retrospect your read on the situation is the one I should have made (actual results and my river decision will be posted later).

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Why do I get the feeling that your opponent limped with AA or KK? (another one of the huge mistakes I see people make in this game)

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The first part of your post though is what really intrigued me to reply though. You are completely right about your observation in these games. The pot odds in these games just go down the drain considering the blinds are so small in comparison to the bets being made. This does make a lot of these hands not nearly worth as much even though I can often see the flop cheaply.

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I tend to stick to top ten hands only in this game. I do, however, give a little wiggle room if I'm on the button and the blinds are passive. I've played 8-10 hour sessions of this game where I've only seen 2-3 flops and gone home a big winner. On the same token, I've lost well over a $1,000 in a single night playing this game when my big pairs and sets aren't holding up.

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With this particular game they were very passive and they would often go to far with hands. So even though 10 was the standard lead out on the flop it would often be multiway to the turn. That is why I played this hand in the position I did.

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You give a pretty good defense of your play, which is something that only 2-3 players I've ever met at a $2/$10 game could give. I've only been to Mille Lacs once, and the $2/$10 games I find around here are rarely passive enough. Heck..I haven't seen any live game that passive in well over a year.

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As for whats spread at mille lacs limit is restricted to 2/4 and 3/6. 2-10 goes on the busier nights usually thursday-sunday and sometimes during the week but usually it'll just be 2/4 and 3/6. These are debately worth playing because the play is absolutely terrible, loose passive all the way but the rake structure probably kills long term profit (10%rake up to 4 with a 1 dollar bad beat toke and then whatever tip you give to teh dealer). Mille lacs will spread 4-30 and 5-60 spread games. Neither of these are really to my liking because of the blinds and the buyins (2/4 and 2/5 300 and 600 dollar min buy ins). I would love to get a 1/2 blind 2-60 game going bc it would probably play much like a 1/2 NL game.

As for the 1-60 game your talking about do you know any casino in MN that often spreads a game liek this? I would love to play something like this but havnt seen it anywhere. Maybe I could con the folks at canterbury to get a list going for that (they probably wouldn't buy it though).

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When it comes to people who run and work in the poker rooms in the two casinos I used to frequent before the $2/$10 game took over, there is one person that I do truly respect as an actual player in Manhommen, MN. His theory on why they don't spread a game like $1/$60 is that it would kill the fish pretty quickly, and the room would dry up for a couple of weeks after one night of spreading the game. They won't even spread $2/$60 for that reason. The smallest blind structure they have for a $60 max bet game is $3/$5, and that game is way out of my bankroll limitations.

I asked him why they spread nothing but $2/$10 anymore, and his reply made me laugh. "The fish love it, and only a couple players that come here really know how to play it correctly. It gives everyone a chance to win."

[Xhad]

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Why do I get the feeling that your opponent limped with AA or KK? (another one of the huge mistakes I see people make in this game)

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Agreed; if Villain overlimped a big pair on the button, then "solid" must mean "rocky and terrible," not "good". I will LRR big pairs in spread sometimes but only from UTG/UTG1.

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The pot odds in these games just go down the drain considering the blinds are so small in comparison to the bets being made.

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This is backwards. This implies that you should be playing a ton of drawing hands in position unless the players behind you are exceptionally agressive.

If most pots are getting raised, then I agree that super-nitty play is correct.

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I asked him why they spread nothing but $2/$10 anymore, and his reply made me laugh. "The fish love it, and only a couple players that come here really know how to play it correctly. It gives everyone a chance to win."

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These "good players" must not be as good as he thinks they are. I've seen several casinos that offered spread limit something like once or twice before finding out that one or two sharks can bust a game within hours. Loose-passives vs. decent aggro players have almost no chance in this game. Loose-aggressives will either make almost no money from an expert, or get destroyed depending on how the cards run.

[bapazian]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot odds in these games just go down the drain considering the blinds are so small in comparison to the bets being made

This is backwards. This implies that you should be playing a ton of drawing hands in position unless the players behind you are exceptionally agressive

If most pots are getting raised, then I agree that super-nitty play is correct...

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It really depends on the table. Even if everyone limps there is only 20 dollars in the pot. If someone bets the max (10) that would make it a 30 dollar pot and if everyone else dumps then your only getting 3-1 which isn't a lot to draw to many hands (not a very probable situation but one that I've seen occur.. A lot of tables I encounter at this game are either weak tight or semi-loose passive so very often your not getting the proper odds to draw. The players at this game love to limp and then bet the max on the flop once their hand is more defined. The tables definitely vary a lot though so its hard to have a standard playing style.

Compare this to a limite game where everyone limps and you are getting 10-1 on a flop call or 20-1 if there is a raise and everyone calls. The pot odds are generally much bigger in regular limit vs spread.

Is this a bad or a good thing? I think it doesn't matter as long as you have a solid understanding of poker theory and properly adjust strategy to the table conditions.

Anyways as for the results

River: Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero Raises (stupidly), Villain tanks a bit and calls shows 22 for a flopped set after I show my 2 pair.

My river raise was very spewy but I just couldn't put him on a hand that beat mine for whatever reason. In retrospect a flat call would have been the standard and proper play.

[Xhad]

Yes, it's true that you rarely have good odds to draw to stuff, but you can always just flop a good hand. In the 2/10 spread games I used to play I would limp 85s OTB all the time, even if I would sometimes have to fold a flush draw postflop. You still make enough money from the times you flop a big hand, or the flop checks through, or the times people call you down because "You're that maniac that plays 85s!" to make it worthwhile.

I guess this is partly a function of game though; the reason I played these hands is because there was almost always at least one person that would pay off, so I'd usually be risking $2 to win a pot that could get as big as $40-$60, or even bigger if my hand is good enough for a raising war (like I flop a straight against a set).

Villain in OP hand probably shouldn't limp 58s, but that's because he's the kind of moron who would check behind a flopped set on the button.