Optimal Play with 22

[paulish]

Situation:
9 handed cash game
Blinds: $5/$10
Stack: You have $100, and everybody has you covered.

If your opponents are super computers, following Optimal Play Strategy, in what position would it be incorrect of you to push all-in pre-flop with 22?

[monkover]

In a cash game it is hardly ever correct to push with small pocket pair before the flop...
it would be different in a tournament though
This is because the best case for you is to be up against two overcards thus there would be a coinflip... the worst case scenario is that you´re up against an overpair...
So I don´t think that it would ever be correct to push against anyone in a cash game

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
In a cash game it is hardly ever correct to push with small pocket pair before the flop...
it would be different in a tournament though
This is because the best case for you is to be up against two overcards thus there would be a coinflip... the worst case scenario is that you´re up against an overpair...
So I don´t think that it would ever be correct to push against anyone in a cash game

[/ QUOTE ]

very wrong, It's different in a tournament!

OP it's deffinitely +EV if you push from the button (co is not necessarily +EV, if you flip over your cards then it deffinitely isn't, which I'm assuming is what you mean by saying that they are super-computers that will play perfectly).

[Unknown Soldier]

also, it has to be folded to you on the button.

[trojanrabbit]

[ QUOTE ]
Situation:
9 handed cash game
Blinds: $5/$10
Stack: You have $100, and everybody has you covered.

If your opponents are super computers, following Optimal Play Strategy, in what position would it be incorrect of you to push all-in pre-flop with 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it's +EV to push even 2 seats off the button (if everyone folds to you) and it's about 0EV to push from 3 seats off.

Tysen

[Unknown Soldier]

where did you get that from?

[JocK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Situation:
9 handed cash game
Blinds: $5/$10
Stack: You have $100, and everybody has you covered.

If your opponents are super computers, following Optimal Play Strategy, in what position would it be incorrect of you to push all-in pre-flop with 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it's +EV to push even 2 seats off the button (if everyone folds to you) and it's about 0EV to push from 3 seats off.

Tysen

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume you have used the software you developed to determine the Nash-equilibrium for a push-or-fold decision?

Impressive!

However, just for clarity to the casual reader (I know you know...), this would demonstrate that all-in is +EV compared to folding, and therefore that folding is wrong. It doesn't demonstrate that going all-in is the optimal play...

[trojanrabbit]

[ QUOTE ]
However, just for clarity to the casual reader (I know you know...), this would demonstrate that all-in is +EV compared to folding, and therefore that folding is wrong. It doesn't demonstrate that going all-in is the optimal play...

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly.
I'm putting together a ton of cool stuff that has never been published anywhere before. You should be seeing something next year.

Tysen

[NMcNasty]

I was messing around with sitngo analyzer to figure this out. Its definitely unprofitable to move in from 2 off the button. From the cutoff and button its a pretty difficult question. I messed around a little with my opponents hand ranges and couldn't find a range that came up negative, however your edge is so small by moving in that I would imagine that there is *some* specific range thats unprofitable for you. Whatever, the difference either way is so small its pointless arguing about it. In a realistic tournament situation you should always be pushing from the cutoff and closer and *maybe* the hijack if your opponents are noticeably tight (as in they would 44 or ATo).

[trojanrabbit]

[ QUOTE ]
I was messing around with sitngo analyzer to figure this out. Its definitely unprofitable to move in from 2 off the button. From the cutoff and button its a pretty difficult question. I messed around a little with my opponents hand ranges and couldn't find a range that came up negative, however your edge is so small by moving in that I would imagine that there is *some* specific range thats unprofitable for you. Whatever, the difference either way is so small its pointless arguing about it. In a realistic tournament situation you should always be pushing from the cutoff and closer and *maybe* the hijack if your opponents are noticeably tight (as in they would 44 or ATo).

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't really use SGNPT to answer the optimal play question. I assume you were using a "top %" method? The SC hand ranks aren't the right ones to use in all situations. I also hope you weren't trying to find opponents' ranges against 22, but rather against a range of possible pushing hands. The opponents don't know what your hand is. The question is "Is 22 profitable against opponents playing game theoretically optimal?" not "Is 22 profitable against all possible opponents?"

Tysen