Folding AA on the flop

[rvg72]

I can't seem to fold AA on the flop. On Card Runners GP talks about not folding AA for one buyin on just about any flop without a super solid read and even he probably would not lay it down at small or mid stakes games.

On the other hand, whenever the money gets in on the flop I find that at least 3/4 of the time I'm up against a set or two pair rather than a lower overpair, top pair or draw. It could of course be selection bias but I really don't think so.

So, my question is, assuming the flop action goes something like:

Hero Bets $11
Villain Raises to $26
Hero Reraises to $85
Villain Pushes (apx $200 total)

and the board is not paired and you are say 30/20 and playing a typical 25/13 type player who is reasonably aggressive post flop, how often are you folding to this action. What if it is paired? Obviously every situation is different but think about how often you have laid this down without lots of history and reads vs villain.

I'm guessing that this is a necessary evil with AA and that folding it in non-extreme cases on the flop vs 1 opponent would be more of a leak then getting it all-in but I just wanted some feedback.

rvg

[Freelancer]

I can lay it down on the flop if the action goes something like this;

preflop
UTG limps
I raise
He calls

Flop 368r
He checks
I bet
He check/minraises
and than I call...

Lets just say I rarely fold aces.

[dd323]

With the action you posted, you are probably folding out most worse hands unless you are playing a total fish.

Also a lot of this depends on flop texture.

Probably you have done this same line a bunch with AA and not noticed it, because when you push over his 3-bet he folds.

If I think there is a good chance I'm ahead after the 3-bet based on the flop texture, I usually just call and get it all in on the turn, unless a big draw is a big part of his range and I feel like flipping a coin..

[thedustbustr]

People felt stupid hands.

Full Tilt Poker
$0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
MP: $100
CO: $119.20
BTN: $107.35
SB: $97.5
Hero (BB): $90.5
UTG: $102.75

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($1.5, 6 players)
UTG folds, MP calls $1, CO folds, BTN folds, SB calls $0.50, Hero checks

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($3, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $3</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $6</font>, SB calls $6, <font color="red">Hero raises to $23</font>, <font color="red">MP raises all in to $99</font>, SB folds, Hero calls all in for $67.50
Uncalled bet of $8.50 returned to MP

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] ($190, 2 players)
No action

<font color="black">River:</font> 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($190, 2 players)
No action

<font color="black">Results:</font>
MP had 9 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Nines)
Hero had 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Eights and Fives) and won $187
Final Pot: $187.00 ($3.00 rake)

[DJ_Northstar]

wtfirrelevanthand

[BobAllinSki]

With the action you posted, for a reasonable flop bet to be ~10 and the full stack to be ~200 with the typical 100 * bb buy ins then you are not raising enough pre-flop. for the pot to be ~10 with 2bb then your raise can only have been around 2.5, if you had made it 5bb the pot bet would have been around 20. If you dont raise then dont go broke on the flop without a good read, if you do raise, don't do it so small that there is 4 pottish sized bets on the flop. imagine if the pot was 20 in your example, then the action would go like

Hero Bets $20
Villain Raises to $50
Hero pushes for $200

You can be a lot more confident with this kind of action than a 4 bet scenario, but of course it still depends on villain &amp; the texture of the flop.

[Tickner]

well, 3 betting a flop looks strong, and a 4 bet looks even stronger. this puts you in a tough spot.

did you consider calling the flop raise and c/r ai on the turn? its probably a more effective line, unless the flop texture is such that its v draw heavey. In which case its good to 3 bet because his 4 bet range includes draws.

[hra146]

Many _call_ a push with TPTK, few will shove on their own part. They mostly figure they have a strong hand (and they cant let go of it), still they know there COULD be a stronger hand. They want cheap showdowns. Recognize when they are not sure about theyr hand and exploit it.

Also: Tight (semi-aggressive) people limping in EP have a PP just goddamn often its not even funny. When you get an all-low board subsequently you have to figure out whether he just doesnt believe that you hit or if he actually flopped a golden trap.

Im willing to play for stacks with AA, but I want to be sure that HES the one not knowing where his hand stands.

[rvg72]

dd323 and Tickner, I like that call and then CRAI turn line. I think you get stacked or forced out by potentially worse hands a little more often but you make more money every other time.

BobAllInSki, I was basing it on a pot sized raise followed by a late position call so figure $16 and change in the pot. The first bet would most likely be my standard CB of $12 in most cases (not $11 but also not $20)

So far, based on the responses, it seems that you should be more concerned with getting more money out of the good second best hands that you beat than worrying about getting stacked which will likely happen if you are up against a set. Is that a fair, super generalized summary?

rvg

[Tickner]

Look at it this way. If he has a set he is most likely going to stack you. But thats okay because when you have a set and you are vs AA, you will stack him.

You need to choose the best line that gets money out of the hands you beat. He is probably folding to the flop 3 bet if we have him beat, and if he re raises that bet, its almost a sure thing were smoked.

On the other hand, if we call his raise, and check the turn, he may feel compelled to continue betting (or bluffing), weather he has us beat or not.

Keep in mind though that this whole post is very general so don't follow what I say to be the bible. Everything is situation dependant, and bet/call check/raise is not always the best line. I assume you understand this.

This post is actually something that took me a while to learn, so consider it valuable.