Stud Hi - 8/16 HORSE

[SteveL91]

First, I'm not even remotely close to a good Stud player. I've been playing mostly LHE for the past few years, and lately, I've been trying to learn other games. I've been reading through 7CSFAP, but mostly, I'm just trying to play with an eye towards logic until I'm better rooted in the fundamentals.

This was a hand from a day or two ago that I thought may be debateable.

7 Card Stud High ($8/$16), Ante $1.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (4.75 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises

5th Street - (5.88 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (9.88 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (11.88 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

Total pot: (13.88 BB - $222)

On 3rd street, I decided to raise, mostly because there were 3 dead Ks, and I thought I'd be able to get the hand HU/3-handed.

The two big decisions (I think) are 4th and 5th. On 4th, I had seen the C/Rer try and pull a couple bluffs, and he struck me as fairly aggressive. With three 4s out, another heart and me holding two more hearts, I thought he was just making a move; plus, I figured I'd knock out the 3rd player. Note that I'm not sure if I made an error in converting the hand or what, but the 4th street action is wrong: I opened the betting and seat 2 called; seat 3 then raised and I re-raised; seat 2 didn't cold-call 2 bets prior to my re-raise.

On 5th, it took me a bit to decide. I really hated that card for all sorts of reasons, but I also picked up 2pr; however, I don't have much ability to improve. I was working from the position that three of his flush cards were dead, and I knew him to be fairly aggressive. If I still only had one pair, I think I would have had an easy fold. I basically made the decision to show down, unless his board got really scary, i.e. open pair of As, or he got another flush card on 6th.

So, did I totally butcher this hand, or is my play at least justifiable? Should I have folded 7th (which I did consider), or is showing down based on what I've mentioned fair?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

[TheSalche]

5th is pretty bad, given the action I'm 90% sure you're beat here, by a flush probably 80-90% of the time and aces up the rest. A lot of players raise with 4-flushes as semi-bluffs trying to build the pot. In this case you actually did the right thing by driving out another player and decreasing his implied odds.

When he catches the ace of hearts, I'm thinkin the worst you'd ever see is something like AxKh4h. His 3rd street passiveness shows he's trying to get in the pot cheap and hope to hit flush cards/big cards.

Two of your boat outs are dead, and dead cards make a huge difference in stud because of the extra betting round as compared to hold'em.

Raising 3rd is fine, but remember, as Todd Brunson points out in his Stud8 section of SS2, when there are two kings/aces in the hand, it is actually more likely that ONE of them has a pair of kings/aces. Of course with 3 out, the chance diminishes greatly.

And the action is posted correctly. You read from top down, and then go up again, top-down. Each row of action is just that person's first action in that betting round, i.e. you bet then raised, seat 2 called then folded, seat 4 raised then called.

[SteveL91]

Thanks. I figured I should have folded on 5th and I really did consider it, but obviously talked myself into the call-down.

For some reason, I thought the action went up from the start point; I figured out it didn't a little while ago. Sorry about that.

[Andy B]

The converter reported the fourth-street action exactly the same way you did. It highlights the action of the player who acts first and you read down from there. This might take some getting used to.

I always find it amusing when folks post a hand that they played against another poster, and the other poster says, "no, you got the action all wrong," and proceeds to correct him by reporting exactly the same action. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Bandied.

I will sometimes limp late with a pair of Jacks, but considering the deadness of your opponents' door cards, I think raising is good. It's relatively uncommon for people to limp in and then fold to a raise, so I wouldn't look for them to do it here.

On fourth, I'm going to guess that that the raiser is on a flush draw. As far as he knows, it's live, so it's worth raising with. You know it's not so live. I like the three-bet to get the other guy out. You may be a slight dog to the flush draw, but eliminating will increase your equity nonetheless.

Now it's not like he has to have a flush draw, so I'd bet fifth. If his raise convinces you that he has a flush, then you have two outs and should fold. I usually need more convincing, so I'd just call this one down. The pot's too big to fold the river. If you're going to fold, you should fold fifth.

Bandied.

[SteveL91]

Thanks for the input. Glad to know I didn't play the hand like a complete donkey, and my thinking is sort of along the right lines.

With the sizeable difference in limping vs. calling the complete, I thought people would fold the real speculative hands that just want to see 4th cheaply. I'll have to remember that's not necessarily true.

Thanks again.

Steve

[Andy B]

They shouldn't be playing those speculative hands from early position, for what that's worth.

[SteveL91]

[ QUOTE ]
They shouldn't be playing those speculative hands from early position, for what that's worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I obviously didn't consider that. So far, the FTP HORSE games seem very tight, giving more credence to your statement.

[electrical]

Seeing three hearts on a board on Fifth street doesn't always mean your opponent has a flush and you should fold. Here, however, you have a pile of reasons to believe he does, or if not, you should fold regardless:

1)Passive but calling on 3rd. He has a little door card of a suit not visible elsewhere on the board. Passive play calling multiple single bets is a tell for a drawing hand, a rolled hand (which we can discount on Third and forget about on Fourth), or occasionally AA, about which more later. Notice how live Hearts are on Third, which would make a heart Three-flush look pretty good.

2)He raises on 4th when he catches a card that can only have mattered by suit. If he was drawing to a straight, a Ten would be a brick-sized brick. We can discount (TT) because there was another T exposed on Third, and he's unlikely to call multiple bets with a comporomised PP and a 4 kicker.

3)On Fourth, once the raising gets the third guy to abandon his dead money, the raising stops. If he had trips on 4th, it would have been capped, certainly, and we can discount two pair because of the other dead cards. He was trying to extract money from multiple opponents, but once it got heads-up, he knew he would have to show down a winning hand, and the raising stopped. Ergo, he needs another card to make such a hand.

4)On Fifth, unless he has a flush or (AA) in the hole, there's no other reason for him to go to war the moment you make an open pair. If he does have (AA) under, you are losing as bad as to a flush, still drawing to two outs.

I don't fold as often as better players do, but even I fold the hell out of this when it gets raised on Fifth.

The only reason to call down is if the guy is a bald-faced maniac playing blasting poker. I have seen that sort of play at lower limits, and it makes for some nice paydays.

[Brad1970]

Fold on 5th. He has the flush. Players at FTP love any 3 sooooted cards on 3rd. Doesn't matter how hard you push, they aren't folding them.

[cgrohman]

I hate you. In protest, I am staying off this board until noon. Chris for moderator.

In other news, I agree with your analysis, except I might have check folded 5th depending on opponenet. With all the 4s dead, he either has a flush draw or a big pair in the whole, so you are either a little ahead or way behind.