LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered

[Coco]

In the spirit of the rabbi's daughter's letter to her father I thought this moving Op-ed piece in the LA Times should also be discussed.
Might Makes Right?

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Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.

But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?

Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.

...

But perhaps Muslims cannot be blamed for expecting special treatment, as well as believing that jihad is righteous and decreed by the Almighty. The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions — all things the Islamic world has yet to do — the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world.


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Mr. Ibrahim brings up some pretty interesting points. Anyone care to refute?

[iron81]

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Anyone care to refute?

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I do.

To a large extent, I consider who conquered who hundreds or thousands of years ago a sunk cost. Every square inch of this earth has been conquered at one time or another.

The fair thing to do is to analyze who is suffering right now and what we can do about it. The Palestinians are in terrible shape: their economy in tatters and their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints. Israel does not suffer this fate. Therefore, the correct thing to do is to give the Palestininans a real state. The the people living in nations conquered by Muslims generally like having their governments dominated by Muslims. The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

[Poofler]

If everyone honestly believed the conflict would be solved by a Palestinian state, maybe it would happen. I think Israel has little reason to believe that it would stop at that.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
In the spirit of the rabbi's daughter's letter to her father I thought this moving Op-ed piece in the LA Times should also be discussed.
Might Makes Right?

[ QUOTE ]

Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.

But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?

Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.

...

But perhaps Muslims cannot be blamed for expecting special treatment, as well as believing that jihad is righteous and decreed by the Almighty. The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions — all things the Islamic world has yet to do — the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world.


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Mr. Ibrahim brings up some pretty interesting points. Anyone care to refute?

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I dunno, this article makes very little sense to me.

The Turks conquered Constantinople 500 years ago. Who are they supposed to give it back to at this point? Does he really think that is equivalent to the issue of Palestine?

He also seems to confuse areas that were forcefully taken by Islamic civilizations (Western Anatolia) with areas to which Islam just spread (Indonesia).

[Coco]

[ QUOTE ]
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Anyone care to refute?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do.

To a large extent, I consider who conquered who hundreds or thousands of years ago a sunk cost. Every square inch of this earth has been conquered at one time or another.

The fair thing to do is to analyze who is suffering right now and what we can do about it. The Palestinians are in terrible shape: their economy in tatters and their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints. Israel does not suffer this fate. Therefore, the correct thing to do is to give the Palestininans a real state.


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So, if Israel can just wait 150 more years, then it would be ok for them to rule Israel and not have a Palestinian state. Time does not make right. The problem with the west is they live in a different world than the Middle East. The whole point of the article is that in the Middle East Might Makes Right, while we as westerners feel bad for the downtrodden.

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The the people living in nations conquered by Muslims generally like having their governments dominated by Muslims. The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

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WOW. Is this the politics forum or the Laughs and Links forum? This blanket statement is probably the most ridiculous thing I have read in weeks on ths board.
Please point out some actual places where I can learn how great it is to be under Islam's rule! I'll start you off.
The Buddhists of Afgahanistan Agree

The Sudanese are having a blast!

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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(Their) economy (is) in tatters

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A self inflicted injury.
Perhaps their economy would improve if they sought cooperation and peace with Israel. Also if they stopped the massive corruption that plagues their leadership, their lives would improve. Arabs come to Israel for work because the Arab leadership is too incompetant to nuture job growth in Arab lands. There may come a time where Israel becomes fed up with Palestinian violence and stops accepting their labor. After all, is having a Palestinian put up drywall for $10/hr worth losing your life to a suicide bomber?

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their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints.

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Another self-inflicted injury.
The fence was a result of the Israelis realizing they could no longer tolerate the Arabs sending suicide bombers to murder Israelis. CHECKPOINTS are for Arabs wishing to enter ISREALI territory. To cross from Canada to the USA people have to go through checkpoints. Why should it be different for people who wish to enter Israeli? Perhaps if the Arabs stopped trying to sneak suicide bombers into Israel, then the Israelis might lower they guard a bit. BTW the fence has been an enormous SUCCESS in reducing murders on Israelis from Palestinians...

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The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

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Which occupied territory are you referring to? The fence has been built. Isreali on one side and the Arabs on the other. The Arabs are free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to. Instead the Arabs choose corruption and a govt that speaks of war against Israel. The Arabs have made their bed, now they must lie in it....

[Copernicus]

These points are made almost word for word in a recent column I cant put my hands on right now, most likely by Lee Harris of the Hoover Institute.

Also Andrew Bostom's new book on the history of Jihad would make the same points Im sure.

I dont think WHEN the conquests occurred is as important as the mindset of Islam, which, as the editorial points out, is one of "privilege". Everythings cool when they win a conflict, but if they should lose, the spoils of war should go to the losers, after all, they were their's before the conflict.

[Meech]

Note this day. I am in complete agreement with Felix & Copernicus.

The Pals reap what they sow.

[JMa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(Their) economy (is) in tatters

[/ QUOTE ]
A self inflicted injury.
Perhaps their economy would improve if they sought cooperation and peace with Israel. Also if they stopped the massive corruption that plagues their leadership, their lives would improve. Arabs come to Israel for work because the Arab leadership is too incompetant to nuture job growth in Arab lands. There may come a time where Israel becomes fed up with Palestinian violence and stops accepting their labor. After all, is having a Palestinian put up drywall for $10/hr worth losing your life to a suicide bomber?

[ QUOTE ]
their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints.

[/ QUOTE ]
Another self-inflicted injury.
The fence was a result of the Israelis realizing they could no longer tolerate the Arabs sending suicide bombers to murder Israelis. CHECKPOINTS are for Arabs wishing to enter ISREALI territory. To cross from Canada to the USA people have to go through checkpoints. Why should it be different for people who wish to enter Israeli? Perhaps if the Arabs stopped trying to sneak suicide bombers into Israel, then the Israelis might lower they guard a bit. BTW the fence has been an enormous SUCCESS in reducing murders on Israelis from Palestinians...

[ QUOTE ]
The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which occupied territory are you referring to? The fence has been built. Isreali on one side and the Arabs on the other. The Arabs are free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to. Instead the Arabs choose corruption and a govt that speaks of war against Israel. The Arabs have made their bed, now they must lie in it....

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the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...n_Palestinians

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

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I see nothing in this link that that supports your statement.
Although it did support the Israeli position, that terrorism has decreased since the wall has been built. The Palestinian construction workers who once had jobs from Israelis are suffering but when their breathren start murdering Jews then....cheap Arab labor doesn't seem like a good deal when they try to kill you and your family...

Corruption and communism are the two strongest factors which are keeping the Palestinians from making economic factors. Also murdering civilians from the primary trading partner is not good business.... I have ZERO sympathy for them.