The Mirror Test For Non Apes and Elephants

[David Sklansky]

I have read that only a few animals, great apes, dolphins, and recently one elephant, pass the mirror test. They are brought in front of a mirror, allowed to watch themselves for a while, taken away, have paint applied to their forehead, and brought back to the mirror.

Since only those animals sometimes wipe their foreheads, it is assumed that only those animals realize that they are looking at themselves. But I wonder if that is so. Might somewhat less intelligent animals like pigs, dogs, cats, birds, or sea lions also get it if they were helped a little. Given more time. Or better yet, helped by props. Suppose each time, or at least at the beginning, the dog was put in front of the mirror with you holding it? That should make it more obvious he is looking at himself. Has this been tried and failed? Just wondering.

[elrudo]

We need to know the definition of 'animal intelligence'.

Is there a good scale for measuring that ?

I suspect that horses and pigs would score very high on the 'animal intelligence test' as well, but both species dont have the anatomy to wipe their foreheads easily.

Where wiping their foreheads using instruments or props would require a higher level of intelligence than needed for the test.

Also, there might be some animals that look at themselves in the mirror ( in nature they might look at themselves when drinking water from a pool or something ) and wipe their foreheads, but score lower on the animal intelligence test.

Is there a 'better' test for animal intelligence ?

[David Sklansky]

You are changing the subject. I simply am wondering whether ther are other animals that, with some help, would get the concept that they are looking at themselves

[John Kilduff]

Good question/no idea;-) Coaching, experience, practice and "help" might help, but...

...it is also worth noting that dogs and cats often appear to not even notice their own reflections in a mirror. Try it a few times with a few cats and dogs when you get the chance, it should be interesting. Male birds, on the other hand, occasionally attack house windows (during mating season?) and seem to be fighting their own reflections. This is not to be confused with accidents where birds die after trying to fly through a window that they apparently did not see, thereby knocking themselves unconscious.

[elrudo]

[ QUOTE ]
You are changing the subject. I simply am wondering whether ther are other animals that, with some help, would get the concept that they are looking at themselves

[/ QUOTE ]

David, changing the subject is bad, but are you looking for yes/no, or other answers without arguments now ?

My money is on the pig.

[IronUnkind]

Mirror Test

[disjunction]

I don't know if this has been tried and failed. My understanding of the issue (based on a single animal intelligence class taken 8 years ago, meh) is that there is one camp of cogntive psychologists who are always trying to do stuff like this. They try to run experiments that tease out the conclusion certain animals actually are more intelligent than previously thought.

The other camp, though, criticizes the experiment as a super-sophisticated demonstration of stimulus response, requiring no intelligence. So the first camp has to be very careful in how they set up the experiment.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
it is also worth noting that dogs and cats often appear to not even notice their own reflections in a mirror

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me dogs and cats are intelligent enough, it is simply a hardware problem for them. That is to say the way their vision works and how they scan their environment and stuff like that.

[Cornell Fiji]

David,
One of my good friends and fraternity brothers was the author of the elephant study. I can try to have him answer any specific questions on the study if you are curious.

As to your question, the mirror test is not a test of animal intelligence. It is a test of 'self-awareness' which, although it is correlated with intelligence, is not the same thing.

I believe that the specific answer to your question is that while you could train a dog to react and touch its face upon giving it a command (and the command could be showing it a mirror) you would merely be teaching it a trick: mirror means touch your face and you would not be teaching it to actually identify itself in the mirror. Self awareness is an innate trait and is something that can not be learned.

I believe tha the authors of the study were very careful not to induce that sort of 'training response' with their elephants because doing so would call their conclusion that elephants are indeed self aware into question

I have emailed Josh your question and will post his response here. He is very busy with his research and I can not gaurantee that he will have time to respond today but I will post his response as soon as I get it

[Cornell Fiji]

I know a lot of 2p2ers don't like reading so here is a short (and very rudimentary) ABC news clip on the elephant study.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2617968

(video starts after a 15 second ad)

This is a 3 minute long NPR interview with Josh that goes further in depth about their study

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=6412620