QJs in SB

[bung]

Sorry about the converter.....I can never find a good one for Full Tilt [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

CO - posted

Button - lag who I'd seen playing aggressively and having everyone fold to him at least 3 times in 30 min. The hands that I actually showdown were questionable ex. J9s on a 9QKxx on board

BB - only one left behind me. A somewhat loose-passive player that surprised me with a call.


Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with :jh :qh
2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, [color=#cc0000]Hero raises</font>, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

As soon as I raised I didn't feel too good about it, even with the benefit of reads, because I had not taken my position into consideration.

Flop: :ah :jd :9c (6SB, 4 players)
[color=#cc0000]Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Middle pair with bdfd + bdsd + the inconvenience of being the pfr oop. I decide to bet and fold to a raise.

Turn: :th (4.5BB, 3 players)
[color=#cc0000]Hero bets</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

No one raised. Are they still drawing, or do I get raised here? But I'm much stronger now. FD, OESD, middle pair. I'm giving myself 9 outs for the FD. If a K or 8 comes, I'm tied with someone with a Q, so 4 outs for the SD. Q outs no good, since that gives any K a straight. Two Js left which I think are still good here against 2 opponents. So worst case scenario, I've got slightly less than 15 outs. I figure I'm 50% to win this hand now, so I decide to lead. If raised I'm reraising.

River: :ts (7.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Button checks.

Miss everything, and the T scares me. I'd still fold to a raise, so I decide to check-call.

Results:
Final pot: 7.5BB

Summary: Flop was played bad, Turn was played fine I guess. I would have probably still gone for the overcall even if I didn't have the lead. River was played bad. That's my analysis, and I'd really appreciate it if anyone would be willing to point out the flaws presented here, or even point me in the right direction.

Anything you guys would want to add would be much appreciated.

[fretelöo]

you choose the wrong format to convert too, no?

"Sorry about the converter.....I can never find a good one for Full Tilt [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

CO - posted

Button - lag who I'd seen playing aggressively and having everyone fold to him at least 3 times in 30 min. The hands that I actually showdown were questionable ex. J9s on a 9QKxx on board

BB - only one left behind me. A somewhat loose-passive player that surprised me with a call.


Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

As soon as I raised I didn't feel too good about it, even with the benefit of reads, because I had not taken my position into consideration.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 4 players)
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Middle pair with bdfd + bdsd + the inconvenience of being the pfr oop. I decide to bet and fold to a raise.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 3 players)
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

No one raised. Are they still drawing, or do I get raised here? But I'm much stronger now. FD, OESD, middle pair. I'm giving myself 9 outs for the FD. If a K or 8 comes, I'm tied with someone with a Q, so 4 outs for the SD. Q outs no good, since that gives any K a straight. Two Js left which I think are still good here against 2 opponents. So worst case scenario, I've got slightly less than 15 outs. I figure I'm 50% to win this hand now, so I decide to lead. If raised I'm reraising.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Button checks.

Miss everything, and the T scares me. I'd still fold to a raise, so I decide to check-call.

Results:
Final pot: 7.5BB

Summary: Flop was played bad, Turn was played fine I guess. I would have probably still gone for the overcall even if I didn't have the lead. River was played bad. That's my analysis, and I'd really appreciate it if anyone would be willing to point out the flaws presented here, or even point me in the right direction.

Anything you guys would want to add would be much appreciated.

[DrModern]

A bizarre paradox: your play is decent or close to it at every junction, yet your analysis is totally wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
As soon as I raised I didn't feel too good about it, even with the benefit of reads, because I had not taken my position into consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although it's good to always consider your position, raising really isn't wrong here.

[ QUOTE ]
Middle pair with bdfd + bdsd + the inconvenience of being the pfr oop. I decide to bet and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, please don't do this. Betting here is fine, but I don't really think you should be bet-folding flops where you'll be getting 9:1 or better odds on a 6 or 7 out draw if raised.

[ QUOTE ]
No one raised. Are they still drawing, or do I get raised here? But I'm much stronger now. FD, OESD, middle pair. I'm giving myself 9 outs for the FD. If a K or 8 comes, I'm tied with someone with a Q, so 4 outs for the SD.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this discounting is too heavy.

[ QUOTE ]
Q outs no good, since that gives any K a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

They aren't worth 0 outs, tho. Considering adding .5 outs for them.

[ QUOTE ]
Two Js left which I think are still good here against 2 opponents. So worst case scenario, I've got slightly less than 15 outs. I figure I'm 50% to win this hand now, so I decide to lead. If raised I'm reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the rationale here? You think your total equity is 50%? You think your equity + fold equity = 50%? Why reraise if you get raised? Go back and think through your turn play.

[ QUOTE ]
Miss everything, and the T scares me. I'd still fold to a raise, so I decide to check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really mind a check-call on the river. Bet-fold works too, tho.

[ QUOTE ]

Summary: Flop was played bad, Turn was played fine I guess. I would have probably still gone for the overcall even if I didn't have the lead. River was played bad. That's my analysis, and I'd really appreciate it if anyone would be willing to point out the flaws presented here, or even point me in the right direction.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop play was good, the turn was fine, too, but your thinking on the turn is muddled. I don't know what the sentence about overcalling means.

[fretelöo]

PF: Yes, barring reads, raising QJs is something I'd do in LP, certainly not in the SB. You are first to act. If BB is indeed passive, it's not too bad that he calls. Did Button try to blindsteal earlier? If so, how did BB behave? If he folds every time, of course you don't like his call. Otherwise, it might not indicate too much...

Flop: Betting is good, I'd say it's mandatory. Any loose player will most likely bet anyway if the pfr is not betting himself. I wouldn't fold to a raise though. Middle pair/good kicker is not too bad. Especially if you've seen Button show down bottom pair before. Why can't he have crap like that now also?
None of your outs are particularily clean, KTo is a hand many raise from the Button or call with from the BB - so your queens are probably dirty. Your Js are probably safe. So 2 for the J, 1,5 for the Q, 1,5 for the FD, and 1 for the SD. You've got odds to continue - and you have a reasonable chance of having the best hand here. So I wouldn't outright fold to a raise!

Turn: Bet is good, I wouldn't reraise though. Someone might already have KQ or 78. The only really safe outs are your flush and probably the JJ outs.
You don't mind a raise, but you might be behind, so why add oil to the fire?

River: Why did you miss everything? You still have your MPGK. And as of now, noone has made you believe those aren't good anymore. That said, The T _is_ somewhat intimidating and I'd probably c/c as well.

I don't think you've played this too bad. After your pfr, the rest of the hand was pretty much fine, imo.

[DrModern]

I really disagree about the PFR being bad. Sure it's optional, but you're against the CO who checked a post, and a button limper. You've got a suited broadway hand that plays well multiway. Limping is fine, but raising is definitely not bad.

Edited to add that this is 6-handed. You should start getting comfortable raising hands like QJs 6-handed if you aren't used to it.

[fretelöo]

Oh, ok, then scratch that. Didn't notice that about 6-handed. Also, I first wrote also that the PFR isn't too bad, but then I thought that the only reason to that would be to get Button heads up. I'm not sure if that is a value pfr (or at least, if the added value isn't upset by your position).

So I would rather take this at half the prize, relying on my postflop play being better than theirs.

But as I said: I have no experience with 6max...

[bung]

Thanks for the advice guys.

This was actually a full-ring game where 6 people were now left playing. I really don't have any experience playing 6-max, so I definitely didn't make that play with any shorthand experience.

Doc, I'm sorry I don't understand your equity question for lack of knowledge. The reason I said I was 50% to win was because I had 15 outs (2:1), and I'm assuming that if I hit one of those I would win the pot.

Regarding reraising and going for overcalls, I realize now I was confused about that particular strategy. If raised on the turn, I would have called, hoping BB would have called one more bet, and maybe called one on the river as well. If I was raised and 3-bet the turn, BB may have folded to 2 bets. I'm assuming that I'll hit the river and be able to showdown with a stronger hand.

Please advise.

[DrModern]

[ QUOTE ]
Doc, I'm sorry I don't understand your equity question for lack of knowledge. The reason I said I was 50% to win was because I had 15 outs (2:1), and I'm assuming that if I hit one of those I would win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a problem. If you think you have 15 outs on the turn, and think that hitting is the only way to win (i.e. you don't think both of your opponents will fold to a turn bet--not a bad assumption to make here), you aren't 50% to win the hand. This is a simple mathematical exercise:

15 outs / 46 unseen cards = ~32%

[bung]

Doc, I think I've been confusing two entirely different poker concepts. The odds of me hitting one of my cards on the river is 2:1. This doesn't mean I'll WIN 1 out of 2 times.

You are saying I will win on the river a little over 1 out of every 3 times when I have 15 outs?

[DrModern]

In this hand, I think your actual equity on the turn is pretty high. No one's shown much strengh thus far and you have a lot of outs. The important thing to notice is that you don't necessarily need to hit an out to win here.

But supposing you were actually drawing on turn, i.e. you somehow magically knew one of your opponents had an ace, so would need to hit an out to win, you'll hit an out and make a winner on the river 15 / 26 = ~32% of the time. I assume here that any out gives you a winner, which isn't a totally safe assumption, but it works for illustrating the concept (I think).

Sorry if that isn't clear. PM me if you want some clarification.