2/4 blind defense. Every street a question.

Octopus · #1 12-09-2006, 08:30 PM

Absolute 8 handed.

Folded to button who raises. Button is 19.5/12.5 on 87 hands, but has raised five out of the seven steal possibilities I have seen him in including this one. I have K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the SB and I three bet. (BB has been 30/4 over the 30 hands I have seen so far, but has not yet defended. Of course, 30 hands is ... not that much.) In any case, he folds and button calls.

Flop is 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I lead and he raises. I call.

Turn is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check/call.

River is T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check (planning to call).

Hobbs. · #2 12-09-2006, 08:56 PM

I like every street except that I'd bet/fold the river.

Allday Everyday · #3 12-09-2006, 09:03 PM

I think preflop, flop and turn are good.

I think your river check-call is okay, but I think a bet might be slighty better...

James. · #4 12-09-2006, 11:37 PM

sometimes i c/r that flop, but not as often as i once did as that type of c/r is pretty transparent in the games i play in now. so i like the flop lead when he doesn't cap PF. you pickup a draw on the turn so it's a call as well. i would donk the river because alot of the hands he's betting on the end(excluding bluffs)are pocket pairs > than tens. if a bet goes in on the river you are less of an underdog putting it there yourself.

szw · #5 12-10-2006, 01:21 AM

Could you guys explain to me the flop/turn lines? I'm new to online poker and as such, new to blind defense situations (not much of that in low limit live poker).

Is the turn call because we think we might be good, or just to pair up? When we miss we check/fold?

Allday Everyday · #6 12-10-2006, 01:35 AM

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Could you guys explain to me the flop/turn lines? I'm new to online poker and as such, new to blind defense situations (not much of that in low limit live poker).

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Given our preflop 3-bet and the villain's call, I think betting out at the flop is necessary. When we get raised I think we need to call that small bet with our decent overcards. If we call we will get to see what develops on the turn and sometimes (when we both check the turn) we also get to see the river too.

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Is the turn call because we think we might be good, or just to pair up? When we miss we check/fold?

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Personally, I think when we call the turn bet we are usually behind and drawing. I think some of the time we will both check the river and take it down with king high.

I would check-fold the river unimproved a lot of the time here.

Octopus · #7 12-10-2006, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Could you guys explain to me the flop/turn lines? I'm new to online poker and as such, new to blind defense situations (not much of that in low limit live poker).

Is the turn call because we think we might be good, or just to pair up? When we miss we check/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I put the last bet in pre-flop and am out of position, I will lead almost any flop. Good opponents realize this and so, with this particular flop, his raise was not particularly surprising. I am not wild about my hand at this point, but I certainly am not giving up either. I would just call the raise with lots of better hands here, too.

On the turn we have two overs, at least one of which is generally good, plus a one-card gutshot. He *could* have aces (or other hands that beat a pair of kings), but on this board, those hands will often wait for the turn, plus they are less numerous than the other possibilities. Far more often he has an unimproved ace or a lower pair (either with the board or in his hand) here. Sometimes he has a straight draw (gutshot on the flop, open ended on the turn) to go with it. I think 7 outs is not a bad estimate here (and we could easily have 10) and we are getting 6-1, making this marginal, but not bad, call. Heads up, marginal situations alway go to the not folding side for me. We could be ahead, but at this point, I am not hopeful.

On the river, I would normally fold unimproved.

My main question was on the river. I hate folding top pair heads up and so do not generally use the bet/fold line in that case, but I want to understand bet/fold situations better. A formerly well known poster (now retired) had questions on the other streets, so I left it open in my original post.

Xhad · #8 12-10-2006, 02:55 AM

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My main question was on the river. I hate folding top pair heads up and so do not generally use the bet/fold line in that case, but I want to understand bet/fold situations better. A formerly well known poster (now retired) had questions on the other streets, so I left it open in my original post.

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The main criteria for a bet/fold:

-Check/folding is wrong
-Villain is more likely to crying call your bet with a hand that would check behind, than he is to bet (after you check) with a hand that would fold if you bet
-Folding to a raise isn't going to be a problem

Condition 1 is pretty obvious. For condition 2, basically every draw got there so for him to bluff the river he pretty much has to have been bluffing from the flop AND be willing to 3 barrel you; on the other hand, expect to see a hand like A8s or 87s a decent amount of the time. For condition 3, the board shows a 4-straight and a 3flush (and both are in your range given the steal situation), so he'll be very reluctant to raise, especially given that almost anything he has will have showdown value.

Octopus · #9 12-10-2006, 11:29 AM

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The main criteria for a bet/fold:

-Check/folding is wrong
-Villain is more likely to crying call your bet with a hand that would check behind, than he is to bet (after you check) with a hand that would fold if you bet
-Folding to a raise isn't going to be a problem

Condition 1 is pretty obvious. For condition 2, basically every draw got there so for him to bluff the river he pretty much has to have been bluffing from the flop AND be willing to 3 barrel you; on the other hand, expect to see a hand like A8s or 87s a decent amount of the time. For condition 3, the board shows a 4-straight and a 3flush (and both are in your range given the steal situation), so he'll be very reluctant to raise, especially given that almost anything he has will have showdown value.

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Nice. Thank you. It is always good when somoeone takes the things you already know and puts them in a way you can understand. (*** I know this reads sarcastic. I mean it to be sincere. ***)

For what it is worth, he had K6o and checked behind and I very likely missed a bet.

QTip · #10 12-10-2006, 11:34 AM

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A formerly well known poster (now retired)

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Outside of the river, I was interested in PF thinking of just calling here if getting involved with this hand.

On the flop, I agreed with James that many times I would have c/red this flop; however, I imagine the games probably don't lend themselves to this move now-a-days.

Turn I thought was close, but fine.

The river. I felt like this would be better as a bet; however, I have a very hard time laying this down to Tags who know I'm a Tag...so, for someone with sticky river fingers like me, I decided I would prefer to check/call.