Preflop, In the bb with QJs, play or fold?

Esmerelda · #1 12-07-2006, 07:38 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($0.35)
Button ($2.97)
SB ($4.36)
Hero ($10)
UTG ($30.26)
MP ($9.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB raises to $0.1, Hero ???

Never sure what to do with a situation like this. Fold seems weak but I do it a lot because I hate being oop in an already decent sized pot with a marginal hand. Pretend the minraise is meaningless and complete? Does anyone at this forum advocate this? Try to raise out the riffraff and play oop in an even bigger pot, seems dubious?

No reads on villain, this is my first hand with him. These tables are usually very passive preflop so the minraise usually means some strength (AK, AQ, 77+, Axs) but the range is pretty villain dependent.

I feel like playing and don't know what to do so I call, a really stupid attitude which I am getting better at resisting.

calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05.

Flop: ($0.40) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, CO folds, Button raises to $0.6, SB folds, Hero ???

Shove or fold right? Seems like the consensus here is generally to shove because the FE makes this a +ev play. I have a feeling villains are catching on that this shove is a draw, and this is a weak one. Seems likely that villain has set, draw or maybe A7, do you think he is folding often enough to make a push here?

InfectorGadget · #2 12-07-2006, 07:44 AM

There is no problem folding this, I do it. As you can see, its a hand which easily can flop a second best hand/draw and put you in difficult decisions. Given you wont have position, playing draws like this is hard.

As played, I dont think a shove is a smart move. Button likes his hand it seems and hes at best on a pair/88-TT, so I fold.

kbrat · #3 12-07-2006, 07:50 AM

pf: why hesitate? You have a solid drawing hand in a min raised pot that is likely to be 4way. call

flop: I don't think you have much FE here, the bb raised the pfr pretty hard, meaning he's got a piece of the flop and is probably willing to go to showdown. You are only getting ~3-1 so I fold.

eigenvalue · #4 12-07-2006, 07:59 AM

(1) With a minraiser in front of You, any two cards give You the pot odds to call preflop. I play $25 NL and call preflop minraisers with any two cards, 32o etc included. This is one of the major sorces of income. If You hit a flop hard and a minraiser was slowplaing an overpair, I usually stack them. So You have the direct pot odds to call and You have huge implied odds.

(2) You should fold this hand. If You wanted to raise all-in on the flop, this had to happen immidiately on Your call. After the Button raised, it's quite obvious that You are playing a semi-bluff. So Your fold equity is nil here.

maccamack · #5 12-07-2006, 07:59 AM

I generally play QJ for a raise - so pre flop is fine for me.

Personally, I don't mind a push - at best you have 9 flush outs and 6 more top pair outs and villian only has $2.97. My guess is that you only have a small amount of fold equity at this level, but you have a good chance of making the best hand. Plus this is a nice shania move.

Esmerelda · #6 12-07-2006, 08:45 AM

I see your point on the flop play. If you had it to do over how would you play the flop?

Esmerelda · #7 12-07-2006, 08:56 AM

I have only played up to 10NL due to skill/bankroll limitation.

I actually notice that at 5bb it is mostly weak tight and loose passive, a lot of people folding to bigger bets unless they have really strong hands. It is darn hard to get people ai, mostly I spend my time stealing raised pots on the flop or turn and when I get impatient I get burned.

There are plenty of exceptions of course but I generally assume without reads that any sign of life means strength (at least from the perspective of the villain). There is always some fold equity against the vast majority of players because they really don't want to put their stack on the line.

The 10NL games are noticeably laggier perhaps 25NL is even more so?