was this ruling correct?

[captain2man]

This past Monday in my local B&M, this situation came up.

After pre-flop betting there's a heads-up situation - seat #3 vs. seat #9 -- I'm out of the hand sitting in seat #8.

Flop comes J-x-x rainbow - player #3 is 1st to act & puts in a big raise.

Player #9 thinks about it for a little bit - picks up his cards & shows me what he has - QQ. I don't make any reaction at all of course.

After thinking for a few more seconds, player #9 - without saying anything - turns his cards over for everyone to see.

The table is a bit confused - but a couple of seconds later, player #9 says "all-in".

Player #3 starts insisting it's a muck and he should win the hand.

The dealer calls the floor & explains the situation. The dealer says it's bad etiquette - but not illegal. He turned his cards over - didn't throw them in the muck - and didn't say anything until he said "all in" - which was AFTER he turned his cards face up.

Player #3 - who is a bit of a sparkplug anyway - is furious over the situation insisting that the floor had gotten this wrong and that it's a muck.

The floor says to player #3 it's a live hand - and he can now act accordingly. Player #3 says "This is f'd up" - and calls - even though he has what is certain to be a losing hand - which it was...putting him out of the tournament.

It goes without saying that player #3 cut his nose to spite his face - I would love nothing more than to have players show me their cards before making every decision - but that's another story.

The floor did say it was bad etiquette and that if player #9 did it again he would be given a 10 minute penalty.

It all seemed reasonable to me. Even though player #9 had the winning hand - he still did player #3 a huge favor by showing him.

But - I'm wondering if this situation was, in fact, handled 100% correctly.

Thanks.

[Slim Pickens]

Since this is a tournament, the floor may penalize a player who exposes a hand during play, but the hand is still live. Usually, the player will get a ten minute penalty if it's an accident. Since this guy did it on purpose, I think he should get a kick in the nuts in addition to the ten minutes. The floor's decision to warn him was overly-generous IMO, but within their authority and the floor's decision is final.

[Mano]

Showing cards in a tournament should not be allowed, too easy to use it to collude with someone else. That being said, I don't think the hand should be dead, but the player should be given a penalty.

[Percula]

The floor got it right.

[psandman]

Well whether it was handled correctly depends on the house rules. If the House uses the TDA rules then the floorman was incorrect in his assertion that it was merely bad etiquette, it is in fact a violation of the TDA rules. Under the TDA rules this is not a muck, the hand is not killed, but the player may be subject to a penalty (It seems to me this would be an appropriate time to impose a penalty as the action was intentional).

Regardless of the house rules, i don't like the floor saying that it is legal, but still threatening a penalty if it happens again. It seems to me that this is the sort of thing that either is legal or it isn't. If your house rules permit this (which would be a bad rule in a tournament) then I don't see how it is bad etiquette, and a player shouldn't be told that he will be penalized merely for doing what the rules allow.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of the house rules, i don't like the floor saying that it is legal, but still threatening a penalty if it happens again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played a Mirage tourney in eons, but the TD there always played by his own rules, not TDA. And his rule was that each table got one warning for exposed cards. "If it happens again at this table, that hand will be dead!" Which meant the angle shooters who knew that rule would often intentionally expose their cards (including Mirage dealers who played in the tourney). TD would come over and rant and give his speech. Horrible way to deal with this...it let the angle shooters shoot, and the innocent and honest bystander who later accidentally exposed his cards would be punished. I never did find out what would happen if a new player got transfered to the table and then exposed his cards after the table had received its one warning.

[jacksquat]

just happened to be standing next to a table at this years WSOP ME where a similar situation occurred. it looked completly innocent from my view, but several players who were not involved in the hand were making a huge fuss about it. long story short, and two floor-men later, the table was told that any body exposing cards from now on was subject to a ten minute penalty. the game was held up for 10 to 15 minutes over this.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
And his rule was that each table got one warning for exposed cards. "If it happens again at this table, that hand will be dead!" Which meant the angle shooters who knew that rule would often intentionally expose their cards (including Mirage dealers who played in the tourney). TD would come over and rant and give his speech. Horrible way to deal with this...it let the angle shooters shoot, and the innocent and honest bystander who later accidentally exposed his cards would be punished.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst way to deal with this. This sort of thing should be covered in the announcements at the beginning of the tournament. It doesn't take long "Hello everyone, welcome to XXXXXXX Casino. I want to thank you for coming and remind you we do have a zero abuse policy here at XXXXXXXXX so anyone that finds they cannot conduct themselves as ladies or gentlemen will be subject to a penalty away from the table. I would also like to remind eveyone that you may not show your hand to induce or reduce an action or a reaction. And finally remeber jsut toos your cards back to the dealer, if you accidently throw them on the floor you will (accidently) get a penalty away from the table. Good luck everyone, shuffle up and deal."

[pfapfap]

I thought I heard during WSOP an exposed hand was a dead hand. I could be wrong. I know in a local tourney, it's a penalty, no ifs ands or buts. The regulars know this and respect it. Gotta nip this [censored] in the bud, no warnings. We're all adults here, we can read rules beforehand or face the consequences. It's not much of a penalty anyway, take it like an adult and deal with it.

[jacksquat]

the players not in the hand were arguing your point.... dead hand. but the floor let it play with the 10 min. penalty warning.