Flopped nut flush draw OOP, is this the right line??

rppkoz · #1 12-01-2006, 12:57 AM

I am a donkament player who is just starting cash games. My basic questions about this hand are:

a.) Is my position too early to limp this hand?
b.) Should I be leading this flop?
c.) How is my turn/river play?

Also, I have noticed a lot of times (not this example) I will have odds to call a flop bet with a naked flush draw IF I can see the turn AND river, but I don't have the odds to call with it on the turn. How do you deal with situations like that?

Thanks for your time all. I really appreciate your input on these basic principles.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button folds, UTG folds.

River: (7.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Mr.JR · #2 12-01-2006, 01:28 AM

A: At a normal table, yes. If you notice the players to be very passive, than a limp in fine.

B: Flop is OK. With so many players, and just the overcard (not good most of the time) and flush draw, I would check/call.

C: I don't like betting the turn with 3 other players left in the hand; Don't see any value it it. River check is fine.

Harv72b · #3 12-01-2006, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
a.) Is my position too early to limp this hand?

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Generally, yes. If the table is playing particularly loose-passive preflop, you can get away with limping AXs from EP, but that will rarely be the case in online 2/4 & above games. In this example it's not all that bad, because there is already one limper ahead of you and a poster behind you, laying you better pot odds should it be raised after your limp.

Again in general, I prefer to have at least two limpers ahead of me and/or be in late position to play a hand like this. If it's folded to me in LP I'll openraise, and if it's one limper to me in LP I'll often raise (depending on the limper & to a lesser extent the blinds).

[ QUOTE ]
b.) Should I be leading this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would. Nobody raised preflop, so you have no idea where or if a bet will come. Your bet is also for value if you are called by more than 2 players, as your FD will come in about 1 in 3 times by the river. The only potential danger in betting is that you'll be raised and isolated, drawing you into a heads up pot. But here, I think it's worth that risk.

[ QUOTE ]
c.) How is my turn/river play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have check/called the turn after being called in 3 places. With 3 opponents still in the hand, your bet is neutral EV if all 3 call, and there is the chance that your semibluff will fold out better hands. However, it's unlikely that all 3 will fold, and the 9 actually is a bit of a scare card (completing the JT OESD), which sets you up to potentially be raised by a straight. Not a big deal if everyone still continues, but not good if you end up heads up.

Without a read, I'm check/folding the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I have noticed a lot of times (not this example) I will have odds to call a flop bet with a naked flush draw IF I can see the turn AND river, but I don't have the odds to call with it on the turn. How do you deal with situations like that

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of variables to consider in cases like these.

-Is there a decent likelihood that your hand is already best? You'd be surpised how often ace high is the best hand after the flop in a heads up pot, even a raised one.
-Do you have any other draws present? Gutshot, backdoor straight, overcard?
-If you have position, could you buy a free card with a flop raise?
-If you're out of position, could you buy the pot with a flop bet or check/raise?
-Is your opponent likely to fire again on the turn if you just call the flop bet?
-Are you likely to get paid off on the river if you hit? Especially, is your opponent aggressive enough to bet/call the river with a worse hand when the flush draw comes in?

You'll rarely find yourself in a spot where you're holding a flush draw and will not have the proper odds to call a turn bet--generally speaking, this is only going to happen in an unraised pot, either heads up or threeway with one limper & both blinds. In those cases, you'll often be the one making the first bet anyway. So in short, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about it...it does come up, and occasionally it will force you to fold a 4-flush, but it doesn't happen a whole lot.

Allday Everyday · #4 12-01-2006, 01:51 AM

I don't think you should limp A6s from early with a single limper before you in the majority of SS online full-ring games. If the game is very loose and passive I suppose it would be okay. I think you should have folded preflop.

I think the flop bet is good.

I think you should have check-called the turn. I think there are too many opponets to bet the flush draw again.

I think you should check-fold the river.

Mr. Orange · #5 12-01-2006, 02:32 AM

I think Harv really nailed this one. So what he said.

Jiggymike · #6 12-01-2006, 02:40 AM

Dude Harv is NASTY tonight, he's putting up like a triple double or something, he might even get quadruple with a couple more blocks.

Niediam · #7 12-01-2006, 06:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dude Harv is NASTY tonight, he's putting up like a triple double or something, he might even get quadruple with a couple more blocks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously. He should be charging us for this stuff!

HoneyBadger · #8 12-01-2006, 08:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I think the flop bet is good.

I think you should have check-called the turn. I think there are too many opponents to bet the flush draw again. (addition: part of the reason to bet the flop is for value if enough call, and a potential free card on the turn. Hope they check through)

I think you should check-fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

rppkoz · #9 12-01-2006, 12:45 PM

Thanks for the analysis all. This was exactly what I was looking for.

I have to say that the only limit experience I have is 5/10 at my local casino and I was amazed how much tighter/better the play was at 2/4 online.