2 50/100 hands commerce

[riverboatking]

one thing to note about the game is that there is a mega fish in the game with a ton of money, who will pretty much call anything before the flop, has no regard for money, and will often raise preflop. this has definately changed the dynamic of the game.

i have a somewhat TAG image preflop however i have shown some nice bluffs.

1)effective stacks 25K.
villian is tricky, very good player who is more then capable of making moves.

villian limps in LP, fish limps on in CO, SB calls, i raise $400 in BB with 77. (not standard but felt like mixing it up and building a nice pot in case i flopped good, default play is to check in this spot)

everyone calls.

flop 10-5-3 rainbow ($2500)

i lead for ~$1500 villian is only caller.

turn 10 putting two clubs on board.

i check call $1200...?

river blank 8.

i check villian fires 5K.

thoughts?


hand 2) fisherman greg is UTG, antonio esfandari is MP, fish is LP i'm on button with black AA.

UTG limps, MP limps, fish limps, i raise make it $500 all call.

flop comes 2-3-4 two hearts ($2000)

UTG checks, antonio leads for $600, fish calls, whats your plan?







ok now say we call flop and UTG (who is a very solid old school player, excellent hand reader, all around solid player) also calls.

turn comes a 7 putting two flush draws on the board and antonio leads for $1600, fish folds and you look over at UTG and he is breathing really heavily...

all thoughts and comments appreciated.

[MDMA]

I think hand 1 is a fold, that line doesn't look much as a bluff imo, why would he bet that small on that great turn if he he had 46/floated you..I guess he could be bluffing with 66, but it seems remote. I think his most likely hand is 88. Think 88 is quite in line with the small turnbet as well. Your hand is quite face up though which of course could make him bluff, but the small turnbet/big riverbet combo doesn't look bluffy to me, looks like a turnbet that is just basically designed to fold out AK/AQ. Sure it could be like an induce for you to checkraise on when you have given up but I find that much less likely from a good tricky player, it's also a bet that is definitely scary to checkraise over, esp with these stacks which makes it even less likely.

In hand2 I either call or make it 2.5k straight.

[snagglepuss]

hand 1 i fold.

hand 2:

what do you think antonio is up to when he is underbetting the flop and turn after limping pf? and with greg seemingly interested in the pot after check-overcalling everyone? looks pretty suspicious to me and i think you can probably just dump it.

or, since you are getting such a good price, call and hope the river goes chk-chk-chk.

goofy spot, because they can easily turn over 55 and a smaller overpair here.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
In hand2 I either call or make it 2.5k straight.




[/ QUOTE ]

i'm assuming you're talking about the flop.
what about if we call flop and the turn action unfolds as described?

[Prevaricator]

i probably c/f flop in hand 1. do you think you get credit for a big hand?

hand 2 i raise 100% because antonio cant really bluff you in this hand with the fish in there too (right?), and getting this pot HU with the fish is worth it.

[AB_illusive]

Hand 1: I can't really figure out a hand you can beat at this point, and any floats would most likely not be betting that weird $1200 bet on the turn.

Hand 2: I really dislike the flop action of just calling, but given that, I think you should raise the turn. As played on the flop, you will be repping quite a strong hand (like 777), which firstly will make them very unlikely to bluff you, secondly will not drive many of the draws out, as they might anticipate some good implied odds. Surely, the raise will fold out many of the hands you're ahead, but I since you wont get action from those hands either way, you might as well raise.

- AB

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I really dislike the flop action of just calling, but given that, I think you should raise the turn. As played on the flop, you will be repping quite a strong hand (like 777), which firstly will make them very unlikely to bluff you, secondly will not drive many of the draws out, as they might anticipate some good implied odds. Surely, the raise will fold out many of the hands you're ahead, but I since you wont get action from those hands either way, you might as well raise.



[/ QUOTE ]

no one is folding a straight or set on turn.
and i kind of felt like if someone had a big flush draw/pair/straight combo they'd have made a move on the flop.
my biggest concern was both the weak lead by antonio into the field but more importantly fisherman greg's overcall.

and prevaricator, antonio can still bluff/semi-bluff because while the fish is a fish, he generally dumps his hand when serious action goes down if he's not HU.

[AB_illusive]

My point wasn't that I think straights or sets are folding, but that by raising, you fold hands, you wouldn't get action from either way, and in contrary action from hands that are drawing at something like 20/80 og 30/70 against you. Lastly, you'll have a much easier river (and turn, if they should raise) decision.

Furthermore, I don't think the draws would be making moves on the flop, unless it's really strong draws, given the fantastic odds and the number of players, they would face. I don't give much respect to the overcall - surely, he would be raising any strong hand, so I would mostly put him on a hand like 76 to the nut gutshot hoping to get paid big by the fish's draw, and maybe the strong end of Antonio's range.

Given the bet size of Antonio's turn bet coupled with the flop lead, I think AA is well ahead of his range.

- AB

[riverboatking]

ok.
i think you make some very good points.

[snugglez88]

hand 1 is a fold... maybe if you were hu in the pot on the flop, but the flop call looks like a T at worst. Like, 53/64 are possibilities I guess but this is really all you beat. I like a turn fold (I feel like you are on 2 outs most of the time and can't call another bet), definitely fold the river.

hand 2 I like a raise somewhere between 2000-3000. SO assuming you called flop... was the utg breathing heavily when he checked or in response to antonio's bet? I think you have to raise the turn to define your hand. Figure out if you're up against the set/ straight now so you don't have to make a tough river decision. Also makes it tougher for the multitude of draws.