KQo without position and my first attempt at isolation (two hands)

nach0king · #1 11-29-2006, 03:20 PM

I haven't posted a hand in a few days so I'm posting 2. Sorry if this is poor etiquette [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Hand 1:

Is a coldcall here a bad idea preflop?

I checked the OESD on the flop to see what MP1 did. I called the turn with what I perceived at 6:1 for the OESD (taking two outs away for the flush) and folded the unimproved river.

Too cavalier to enter and too timid not to bet out on the flop?

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Prima Poker skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.05/$0.1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (12SB, 6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6BB, 6 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (11BB, 5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero folds.

Results:
Final pot: 15BB

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Hand 2:

At first glance, my preflop re-raise is truly awful. However, there is method in my madness - or, at least, I'm hoping to find out if there is.

The called and raiser in front of me are noted at the table for their erratic play; they had called very coordinated boards with hands like K6s (not a flush board) and J3o right down to the river. I figure that, this given, they could have any two hands, so I'd re-raise, filter out the good couple of players behind me, and be left with these guys, and thus it proved. While I didn't have a stat read of any real substance on either of them, my observance had paid off, or so I thought. MP2's reraise rattled me slightly but I figured that he had been playing previously like an "in for a penny, in for a pound" kinda guy, so I didn't panic.

Was this whole play a good idea? It was my first real, deliberate attempt at employing this tactic and I wonder if my postflop play was appropriate for it?

Prima Poker skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.05/$0.1
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (13.4SB, 3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.7BB, 3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.7BB, 3 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10.7BB

-

Thank you all, as always.

MrWookie · #2 11-29-2006, 03:24 PM

Preflop is the only part of either hand where your play is suspect. Hand 1 is a very marginal call, but I lean fold. Hand 2 is terrible against even maniacal players. Easy fold.

nach0king · #3 11-29-2006, 03:26 PM

I thought I'd picked a good hand to do it with? But if my thinking ("these two could have virtually any hand; even with a rather poor hand I could still be ahead and my superior postflop play will see me exploit that edge") was wrong then I guess I can't complain [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

kerowo · #4 11-29-2006, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I'd picked a good hand to do it with? But if my thinking ("these two could have virtually any hand; even with a rather poor hand I could still be ahead and my superior postflop play will see me exploit that edge") was wrong then I guess I can't complain [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably need a better hand to show down against someone who will raise any two preflop and not fold. These are also the people you can't "outplay" because they aren't "playing" the same game you are. These are the people you value bet when you have a good hand and call down with a marginal hand as cheaply as possible.

nach0king · #5 11-29-2006, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
These are the people you value bet when you have a good hand and call down with a marginal hand as cheaply as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Written on a post-it and stuck to my monitor - thank you [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Man of Means · #6 11-29-2006, 03:52 PM

Hand 1: fold preflop, it will keep you out of trouble! postflop is fine as played.

Hand 2: You don't have a big enough hand value-wise to re-isolate here. Also if you perceive first limper is loose, you're not really "isolating", you're just building a bigger 3-way pot. I'll occasionally 3-bet a maniac openraiser with any Ace (in late position) and just take it to showdown, but here you have to beat two players and might face heavy postflop betting.

NIX · #7 11-29-2006, 04:02 PM

For Hand 1, I don't even like to cold call a raise with KQo in position. Granted, it's not a complete cold call, but being OOP will suck enough that the discount of 1/2 SB on your cold call probably isn't worth it. Post flop, I play the same.

For Hand 2, I can go either way with isolating with A4s in overall terms. If your target Villain is an 80/60 type player or a fit or fold post flop player, I think it's cool if you are in relatively late position and can be relatively sure that you can get it heads up. I wouldn't want to attempt it though in middle position since the chance of cold callers is just too great. If the target Villain is a more standard semi-loose/semi-passive player, I'd like a better hand than A4s.

For the hand in question, I don't think you meet the above criteria. It sounds like the raising Villain may be an ok target, but you have another limper in the hand who isn't folding, which would make the most logical scenario be you and the two non-folders going to the flop for 3SB each or for 4SB each (which happened). The problem with this is you will now need to have the best hand at showdown to win. I don't think A4s is a strong enough hand to do that. If the first non-folding Villain folded preflop the first time, you have a much stronger case to make this play in my mind, but not when you will most likely get 3way action.

Befolder · #8 11-29-2006, 05:59 PM

Grunch:

Hand 1: Since there is so much money ahead of you, I probably call. The only problem is, KQ is probably the most heavily dominated hand when there's been a raise ahead of you. The overlay makes it correct though I'd say.

Flop: One of the better flops for you, good action resulting.

I like the way you played the rest.

Hand 2: I understand what you're trying to do there, but I want a stronger hand to do it with. It doesn't take much to be behind w/ A4s.
If you're going to 3 bet, you pretty much have to bet the flop as you've represented a big hand. If you get raised, ditch it and be done until you get a better opportunity later.

little mac · #9 11-29-2006, 08:57 PM

I wouldnt call the raise in the first hand but once in you played the rest fine.

I dont like the raise in the second hand but at least you are looking for opportunities to isolate and will start to spot better situations the more you look for them.

It is an area of my game that i am working on and it would be good if somebody could post some good isolating hands so we can both improve. I'm guessing AT A9 K9 suited.

Tim Brice · #10 12-01-2006, 02:22 AM

With hand 1, I see no problem with calling with so many players in the pot. Did you think about semi-bluffing the turn? (I am grunching here, so sorry if it has been addressed)

On hand 2, was the guy raising consistently with weak hands? When I do an isolation raise, I usually like for it to be heads-up. I would also probably get a bet in at some point post-flop. I am not quite sure where though. But I probably do not make this play to begin with.