KK, yo.

Entity · #1 11-28-2006, 01:06 AM

1 limper, and a TAG raises. He's 28/22/2 or so, fairly aggressive postflop, but not stupid from what I've seen. Just aggressive. I 3bet K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], limper calls, and TAG calls.

The flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Limper checks, TAG bets, I call, limper folds.

Turn 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. TAG bets, I call.

River 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. TAG checks, I check.

Meh?

Victor · #2 11-28-2006, 01:07 AM

valuetown yo.

DpR · #3 11-28-2006, 01:20 AM

that c/r is gonna hurt.

Surf · #4 11-28-2006, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
valuetown yo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rescind this assertion.

I like a check now.

Surf

admiralfluff · #5 11-28-2006, 01:45 AM

If we can't value bet this river, then what is the point of calling the flop? His flop bet is a pretty donk move, espeicially for a tigher, aggressive player. He is usually c/ring an fd, and either c/ring or c/cing an A, right? If I think he has a lower pair or some crap often enough to be willing to put 2.5 more BBs into this pot to see SD, then the river is a pretty easy bet/fold. If not, the flop is a pretty easy fold.

Would someone mind elaborating on why the check behind is ok?

Entity · #6 11-28-2006, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If we can't value bet this river, then what is the point of calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

The point of calling the flop is thinking that I have > 33% equity or so (rough estimate) against his full range of hands. I'm willing to call down. The reason I didn't valuebet the river is that I thought he had enough FPS and enough tendencies to make me not sure that I would be good > 55% of the time that I was called.

The counter to this whole hand is asking what my hand looks like to him: to me, it's pretty clear that I have JJ-KK and he should not check-call with JTs. But then again, I wouldn't play any hands that I can think of like this in his position.

It's an easy bet and fold to a checkraise if I think I'm good better than 50% of the time that I'm called when I bet. I didn't think I was, so I checked. Against an opponent who takes a strange line like this on the flop it's tough to read exactly what his handrange is and tough for me to know if I have room for a valuebet or if I'm getting checkraised, or worse yet, if he realizes I have KK and he has JTs and a checkraise is +EV for him.

Rob

Victor · #7 11-28-2006, 01:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we can't value bet this river, then what is the point of calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

The point of calling the flop is thinking that I have > 33% equity or so (rough estimate) against his full range of hands. I'm willing to call down. The reason I didn't valuebet the river is that I thought he had enough FPS and enough tendencies to make me not sure that I would be good > 55% of the time that I was called.

The counter to this whole hand is asking what my hand looks like to him: to me, it's pretty clear that I have JJ-KK and he should not check-call with JTs. But then again, I wouldn't play any hands that I can think of like this in his position.

It's an easy bet and fold to a checkraise if I think I'm good better than 50% of the time that I'm called when I bet. I didn't think I was, so I checked. Against an opponent who takes a strange line like this on the flop it's tough to read exactly what his handrange is and tough for me to know if I have room for a valuebet or if I'm getting checkraised, or worse yet, if he realizes I have KK and he has JTs and a checkraise is +EV for him.

Rob

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

ok when did this dude become a super expert that could see into our soul.

admiralfluff · #8 11-28-2006, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Against an opponent who takes a strange line like this on the flop it's tough to read exactly what his handrange is and tough for me to know if I have room for a valuebet or if I'm getting checkraised, or worse yet, if he realizes I have KK and he has JTs and a checkraise is +EV for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it actually possible for this guy to be this good and make that flop donk 3-way? (Not a rhetorical question).

Entity · #9 11-28-2006, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we can't value bet this river, then what is the point of calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

The point of calling the flop is thinking that I have > 33% equity or so (rough estimate) against his full range of hands. I'm willing to call down. The reason I didn't valuebet the river is that I thought he had enough FPS and enough tendencies to make me not sure that I would be good > 55% of the time that I was called.

The counter to this whole hand is asking what my hand looks like to him: to me, it's pretty clear that I have JJ-KK and he should not check-call with JTs. But then again, I wouldn't play any hands that I can think of like this in his position.

It's an easy bet and fold to a checkraise if I think I'm good better than 50% of the time that I'm called when I bet. I didn't think I was, so I checked. Against an opponent who takes a strange line like this on the flop it's tough to read exactly what his handrange is and tough for me to know if I have room for a valuebet or if I'm getting checkraised, or worse yet, if he realizes I have KK and he has JTs and a checkraise is +EV for him.

Rob

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

ok when did this dude become a super expert that could see into our soul.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love your hyperbole.

He's:

A) A TAG, aggressive. Can read hands. He's not amazing. Maybe capable of bluffs and bluff checkraises -- maybe not. Hard for me to know since I haven't seen much besides semistandard play against him. This bet is the first thing that's thrown me off.

B) Taking an incredibly weird line for pretty much any made hand. Most typically when I see this it's a very weird bluff, or a made hand of sorts like A8s, with the occasional hand like KTs that wants to get "protection." That of course doesn't make sense given the range of hands I'll raise here means he's drawing anyway.

The combo of those two things led me to believe that betting here was a close decision. Of course the 2p2 mantra is to bet when checked to because it's obvious that everyone will pay you off all the time so I should have just bet and folded to a checkraise, because it's obvious that T9s is paying me off here all the time.

Rob

SparkyDog · #10 11-28-2006, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]

ok when did this dude become a super expert that could see into our soul.

[/ QUOTE ]

If DPR can say "that checkraise is gonna hurt" from reading a post, it's just one more level of thinking for this guy to bluff raise, and not unpossible IMO. So I don't think a bluff checkraise is frequent, but when we're talking about a situation the slim possibility plus the fact we lose the whole (large) pot could easily swing this to a check IMO.