Consciousness and free will

arahant · #1 11-23-2006, 05:35 AM

I've seen both consciousness and free will mentioned repeatedly in several recent threads related to theism, so i thought I'd solicit opinions. I'm sure, of course, that this has all been covered before, but i know y'all like to talk, so...

I'm a materialist at heart.
What reason do I have to believe in free will?
What reason do I have to place some mystical significance in consciousness?

To me, it's almost obvious both that traditional free will doesn't exist, and that consciousness is nothing special and certainly not in need of explanation ('mind is what brain does').

Are there any scientific or philosophical arguments that should lead me to believe otherwise? I assume peoples understanding of these things derives from their personal perceived experience,no?

Phil153 · #2 11-23-2006, 06:40 AM

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I'm a materialist at heart.

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Then you're probably only using part of the functionality your brain offers.

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What reason do I have to believe in free will?

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Reductio ad absurdum.

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What reason do I have to place some mystical significance in consciousness?

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None, but it's pretty strange if you really think about it.

evolvedForm · #3 11-23-2006, 08:00 AM

To speak to your question on consciousness:

Consciousness need not be looked upon as mystical. Nor should we discount it as Nietzsche and many cognitive psychologists have done. It is vital to all significance in our lives, that much is clear. Also, we cannot explain all human action without it. Would you make the same decisions after reading Shakespeare as you did before reading Shakespeare? Would you think the same thoughts? It seems clear to me that were it not for awareness of the text, we would not act in accordance with it.

Furthermore, even if you argue that we could absorb it in the subconscious without consciousness, that does not explain that we can consciously place a certain importance on something - say a random, unimportant thing - and remember it years later. (I have done this and it works). Consciousness is indeed important.

vhawk01 · #4 11-23-2006, 02:07 PM

I'd just throw a lot of 'yet's in there, evolved.

Skidoo · #5 11-23-2006, 04:16 PM

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I'm a materialist at heart.

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What is matter, really?

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What reason do I have to believe in free will?

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You know it if you got it.

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What reason do I have to place some mystical significance in consciousness?

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Consciousness can't be described in terms of physical phenomena (though it is effected by them).

vhawk01 · #6 11-23-2006, 04:23 PM

Those are a lot of bold (read:unsupported) assertions.

The once and future king · #7 11-23-2006, 04:27 PM

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What reason do I have to believe in free will?

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Big assumption right there. The assumption of a unified identity is allways present in the question of consciousness and free will.

FortunaMaximus · #8 11-23-2006, 04:59 PM

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I'm a materialist at heart.

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Well, you need material to create matter out of what you want in mind. So that's cool.

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What reason do I have to believe in free will?

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None at all. There should be layers of control, but there isn't ultimate free will. Well, the structure collapses upon itself, because primates have control over other primates, and sometimes it flips.

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What reason do I have to place some mystical significance in consciousness?

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About the same amount of reason you should place on feeling and love. They amount to the same thing, after all.

Skidoo · #9 11-23-2006, 05:12 PM

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The assumption of a unified identity is allways present in the question of consciousness and free will.

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Is there more than one you? If so, can you communicate with each other?

keith123 · #10 11-23-2006, 06:16 PM

free will doesn't exist in the way most people think of it. it is merely the ability to act upon the decisions that we are predestined to make. we do not have the ability to make choices in life that are independent of (1) the traits with which we are born, (2) anything learned/developed through our enviornment, and (3) anything granted to us directly by some sort of higher power.