10/20 - getting trapped in a big pot

[kapw7]

I've been playing NL lately (pretty cool btw) but I missed FL and I tried to open a few tables last night. The good and BAD thing in limit is that you can always call 1 bet on the river if the pot is huge.

UTG and CO are 30/20 ish playeres and I haven't seen them doing antyhing funny yet. Btn is an uberdonk 82/0 (!!) and he is the reason I made the call PF. I didn't notice that he went shortstacked (my NL skills suck) b/c last time I checked he had $400...

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG caps</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (16.5SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button calls all-in $23.76</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, UTG folds, CO calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (14.44BB, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: 12.81BB, Sidepot 1: 1.62BB)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (16.44BB, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: 12.81BB, Sidepot 1: 3.62BB)
Hero ?

[raze]

Super marginal, but don't bother trying to save a bet in a pot this big.

[TheGunner]

Wow, that sucks.

CO 3bet pf and 3bet the flop. He has a T or a high pocket pair here almost always (if he doesn't, Button could take a large percentage of the pot). I c/f.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]

Button could take a large percentage of the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this an important thing to consider

[raze]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Button could take a large percentage of the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this an important thing to consider

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true, but button is also a huge fish who would also call the flop with a smaller PP, Ace-high, straight draw, flush draw, and possibly random cards.

Don't make big river laydowns getting 17-1.

[CourtJester]

dude, just c/c, you'll be able to sleep better at night knowing u didnt throw away your chance at 17BB

[True]

easy check/fold

True

I think pf is fine.

[PokerSparky]

[ QUOTE ]
easy check/fold


[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I'd be so much better player if this really were an easy fold for me. I think check fold is probably good here, but I look at the 17BBs in the pot, and I can convince myself to call here inspite of knowing I'm beat.

[Jiggymike]

I would c/c even though Sklansky basically says not to in HPFAP and I listen to everything he and Malmuth say. Still if I c/f this river and they both turn over rags it would ruin my limit psyche forever.

BTW preflop is quite marginal even with fish there, CO probably isn't 3-betting air. I would have folded.

[kapw7]

This hand made me consider in what degree you can alter your decision making when the pot gives you big odds. It's interesting to examine it both from the point of view of hero and villain(s).

Hero: What pot odds/opponents would make this a call on the river?

I'll post the results b/c they can help the discussion from the point of view of villain.

Results: I checked and CO checked (pheww). I would most likely fold to a bet. CO showed 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ! Donk btn had Q9o and I took a nice pot

So how close to correct is a river call by hero and a desperate river bluff by villain when you consider the size of the pot? Bad players make these calls/bluffs all the time. Do they actually play optimally when the pot is huge? What size is the threshold?

It's also worth noting that UTG's most likely hand was AK. Do you think AK makes a good flop fold? (It's a fold for me fwiw)