20/40 river?

spiff21 · #1 11-19-2006, 05:58 PM

Villain 28/18/2.24 folded bb to steal 45. He is pretty good. Tricky for sure.

I often just call all the way down in these spots, but lately I've seen so many donk bets from everyone everywhere, and I'm becoming fed up! So now I'm on a mission to show people that when I raise preflop I'm in command. Therefore I raised this flop.

What I'm unsure about in this hand is the river. Check or bet?

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ???

JHRoman · #2 11-19-2006, 06:44 PM

I´m not quite sure waht we are afraid of? Is it a Q? (no) Is it a flush (no) etc
I think one can bet and expect a 9x, that was scared by the turn call.
Or am I missing something vital?

Dane S · #3 11-19-2006, 06:57 PM

His flop play is pretty strange if he just has 9x without an accompanying draw. I suppose he could have a gutshot with it, but that still seems out of character for someone with these stats... it would also be kind of psychologically contradictory to play a weak pair fast on the flop then give up without a VB on the river.

I'm leaning towards check.

Dane S · #4 11-19-2006, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I often just call all the way down in these spots, but lately I've seen so many donk bets from everyone everywhere, and I'm becoming fed up! So now I'm on a mission to show people that when I raise preflop I'm in command. Therefore I raised this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that raising this flop is necessarily a bad play, but doing it to be "in command" is a bit misguided. Sometimes it's +EV to be in command, sometimes it isn't. There's nothing inherently good about the driver's seat--don't fall for the macho headgames.

I think my default here, depending on read and recent history, would be to call the flop and raise a blank turn, but I'm sure it's fine to mix in some flop raises, too.

gehrig · #5 11-19-2006, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I´m not quite sure waht we are afraid of? Is it a Q? (no) Is it a flush (no) etc
I think one can bet and expect a 9x, that was scared by the turn call.
Or am I missing something vital?

[/ QUOTE ]
villain can c/r river

given his flop line i think its a lot more likely than normal that he's going to. sometimes tags get in OMG IM GONNA OWN SOMEONE!!! mode

JHRoman · #6 11-19-2006, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
His flop play is pretty strange if he just has 9x without an accompanying draw. I suppose he could have a gutshot with it, but that still seems out of character for someone with these stats... it would also be kind of psychologically contradictory to play a weak pair fast on the flop then give up without a VB on the river.

I'm leaning towards check.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well... he´s still fairly aggressive as a whole, and he could have a lot of hands with a 9, defending here. I still don´t see why he suddenly would check a queen on the river.
(Any better hand than a Q (set etc) would imo be v e r y, probably over- so, tricky if choosing this line, including the presumed river-cr. I think "normal" fast play would be cr on flop with 2 clubs. Or?)

JHRoman · #7 11-19-2006, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I´m not quite sure waht we are afraid of? Is it a Q? (no) Is it a flush (no) etc
I think one can bet and expect a 9x, that was scared by the turn call.
Or am I missing something vital?

[/ QUOTE ]
villain can c/r river

given his flop line i think its a lot more likely than normal that he's going to. sometimes tags get in OMG IM GONNA OWN SOMEONE!!! mode

[/ QUOTE ]
But he ought to know that this will fail most of the times. On the other hand.... if he´s in the mode you´re talking about, I guess he doesn´t care that much.... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

spiff21 · #8 11-19-2006, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I often just call all the way down in these spots, but lately I've seen so many donk bets from everyone everywhere, and I'm becoming fed up! So now I'm on a mission to show people that when I raise preflop I'm in command. Therefore I raised this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that raising this flop is necessarily a bad play, but doing it to be "in command" is a bit misguided. Sometimes it's +EV to be in command, sometimes it isn't. There's nothing inherently good about the driver's seat--don't fall for the macho headgames.

I think my default here, depending on read and recent history, would be to call the flop and raise a blank turn, but I'm sure it's fine to mix in some flop raises, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just got back into the Party games, been playing on other sites for about a month, and I can't remember that I ever saw so many donk bets before!! My god! It is driving me crazy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It is like raising preflop has no merit. And they sure choose which flops to donk on. I'll need to study peoples' donk bet frequency and with what holdings everybody suddenly is so donk happy about.

spiff21 · #9 11-19-2006, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

given his flop line i think its a lot more likely than normal that he's going to. sometimes tags get in OMG IM GONNA OWN SOMEONE!!! mode

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, that's me! I love the feeling of fooling another good player [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Dane S · #10 11-19-2006, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I often just call all the way down in these spots, but lately I've seen so many donk bets from everyone everywhere, and I'm becoming fed up! So now I'm on a mission to show people that when I raise preflop I'm in command. Therefore I raised this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that raising this flop is necessarily a bad play, but doing it to be "in command" is a bit misguided. Sometimes it's +EV to be in command, sometimes it isn't. There's nothing inherently good about the driver's seat--don't fall for the macho headgames.

I think my default here, depending on read and recent history, would be to call the flop and raise a blank turn, but I'm sure it's fine to mix in some flop raises, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just got back into the Party games, been playing on other sites for about a month, and I can't remember that I ever saw so many donk bets before!! My god! It is driving me crazy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It is like raising preflop has no merit. And they sure choose which flops to donk on. I'll need to study peoples' donk bet frequency and with what holdings everybody suddenly is so donk happy about.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's tough to get used to... but after awhile you'll be glad to see donks as 90% of them are akin to your opponent hurling money at you... as long as you handle them right and don't get flustered.