Where's the sense in "calling"?

[Ludanto]

Please correct me where my thinking is wrong.

1) Every hand of Texas Hold'em can be treated as a series of proposition bets.

2) If one's expectation value is positive it is profitable to take the bet. If the expectation is negative one should not take the bet.

3) If the proposition has +EV then it is (in absolute term) more profitable the more you bet.

From this one could deduce that there are only to logical options: fold or raise. Where is the sense in calling i.e. preflop and not either folding or raising? Is there a mathematically correct equity edge that mathematically justifies calling over raise or otherwise? If so, how is it calculated?

[KurtSF]

When drawing, no? A call can be the most +EV play.

[Ludanto]

KurtSF, I think that you are right when you say that calling can be the best decision in some situations.

Question:
Is calling only better than raising
IF you have an above average pot equity
BUT the money you would contribute to the pot (on that very decision) by <u>min-raising</u> would be more percent of the total pot than your pot equity?

I hope the question is understandable. If it is not understandable I will try to rewrite it.

[Rook]

Calling can also be the best option when you are in a WA/WB situation. You are not sure if you are winning, but you could be, and folding is not a good option. So by calling, you keep the pot small and minimize losses.

[Rook]

As an aside, I have never found a good situation for minraising. Minraising automatically gives everyone at least 3:1 odds, often times more. Giving odds is not good poker.

[Ken_AA]

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, I have never found a good situation for minraising. Minraising automatically gives everyone at least 3:1 odds, often times more. Giving odds is not good poker.

[/ QUOTE ]


You can give odds if they opponent does not have outs.
Example:

you hold 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Board is

6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

and you are confident the oth erguy has a straight or flush draw.

Now, miniraising is probably still not the best play, but tring to keep someone in the hand can be a good play.

Ken

[Ludanto]

WA/WB = way ahead / way behind?

[UATrewqaz]

What about a draw in limit?

Say you have 4 to the nut flush with one card to come and its heads up and a guy bets into you, offering you say 6-1 on your draw.

Clearly folding is incorrect as you have proper odds to make your draw.

However calling is most likely far superior to raising. If your raise would make your opponent fold a decent amount of the time it would be best, however this will almost never be the case (the pot will be too big for him to throw away his hand for 1 more bet, especially considering he just bet into you). He'll either call or possible reraise if he's very strong.

Thus calling is superior to raising, because the raise in affect cost you more to make your draw.

[Ampelmann]

Pretty easy: Calling keeps you in the hand while folding does not.

Calling is clearly the best move when
(1) you get sufficient pot odds
(2) you don't have an equity edge (including fold equity)

[Ludanto]

Ok, I think I should mention some more things. Sorry for not doing this earlier. The reasons I am trying to find out when calling is better than raising should only apply to a mathematically correct way of playing which is almost the same as saying that you can see your opponents cards (or read him absolutely perfect). Also I am not asking about reason which can be put into the category "creativity" which would be true for UATrewqaz example. Let's say I don't consider things such as "if I do X then my opponent might fold which I don't want".


Ampelmann, what about this example? (remember: no creativity, only the mathematically best decision):

Heads-up limit Texas Hold'em.
Your hole cards: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Preflop play: raising until cap. Pot: 8 SB.
Flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Your opponent bets.
Here you have sufficient odds to call. But mathematically it would be better to raise. Do you agree?


You say that calling is also clearly the best move when you don't have an equity edge (including fold equity).

By writing equity I thought one usually means pot equity (that's what I mean at least) which includes fold equity.
What is an "edge" here in your opinion? Is it only a pot equity above average or is it the highest pot equity among the players in the hand?