Letter to a Christian Nation

[Dominic]

I just finished reading this one by Sam Harris...it'll take you about an hour, tops, to read it.

Not sure if this kind of discussion belongs in the Lounge or Politics or SMP, but what the hell...

I'm an atheist, and for years now I've been kowtowed into saying things like "I'm an agnostic" or "I'm more spiritual than religious," but no more...I'm tired of being politically correct around people who insist their god is right; hell, I'm sick of not speaking up around people who insist that their god actually exists at all.

After reading the common sense that is this book, I'm just going to stick to my guns and admit that if you are religious, or believe in a supernatural being up in the clouds or get your moral bearings from a contradictory 1st century book of fables, then I think you are delusional.

Religion has fostered a climate of hate in this world like nothing else. It has slowed the trail of scientific progress immeasurably, and it is the enemy of reasonable thought.

Finally, I feel it to be the number one threat to the well-being of both this country, and human civilization as a whole.

As Mr. Harris points out so much more eloquently than I ever could, if there were a bunch of people still worshiping the Greek gods like Zeus, you'd more than likely call them insane. Well, that's what I feel about your God, be it a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu one.

I've read the Bible and the Koran from cover to cover. Now I challenge you to read Sam Harris' little book and see if you can handle the truth. See if your religious beliefs can hold up to reasonable examination.

And any argument you feel like throwing back at me as to why you believe in something so intangible and obviously illusory is answered in that book.

Letter to a Christian Nation

[kitaristi0]

Amen.

[BPA234]

I caught a radio interview with Harris; been meaning to buy the book. What I liked about the interview, and what I believe is carried in the book, was his rational approach.

Good luck shoveling [censored] against the tide.

[Stagger_Lee]

I'd like to be able to pinpoint the time that the athiests took over the role of ramming their way of life down other people's necks.

The majority of christians gave this up decades ago. But it seems that so many athiests feel the need to evangelise. And this takes place wherever they feel it should, regardless of how insensitive or out of place their diatribe is.

I tend to know who athiets are - because they are so busy telling everyone at any chance they get. Noone is trying to convert athiests - so why are so many athiests trying to convert others?

In our generic societies most practicing christians, for example, go out of their way to wear any symbols with discretion. Faith is something to discuss at the approriate time. Those who display their beliefs, such as some Muslim women, are often shunned or treated with scorn.

But so many athiests seem to think that their convictions should be discussed at work, in the pub, in fact anywhere they might get an audience. Here is a tip - nobody cares.

[diebitter]

Don't agree. I think the desire to evangelise is a personality trait, actually. Probably either to try and justify your own beliefs by trying to persuade others you are right, or sometimes to shore up your own inner uncertainties by projecting outer confidence.

The problem isn't one of atheists, or one of religion, but one of being needy about evangelising.

And dedicated evangelisers are usually seeped in dogma (either their own, or others), and that is the true sign of a closed mind, for good or bad. Which is why a lot of people don't like evangelisers, I suspect.


sounds like a good book though. Personally I lack the confidence to know for sure there's no god (though I would call myself an atheist, I hope to God I'm wrong), and if there is, which god is the right one (though I think the giant flying spaghetti monster has as good a case as any of them), or the capacity to concern myself with what people believe or don't believe as long as they don't wanna kill/hurt/repress over it.

[JMa]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to be able to pinpoint the time that the athiests took over the role of ramming their way of life down other people's necks.

The majority of christians gave this up decades ago. But it seems that so many athiests feel the need to evangelise. And this takes place wherever they feel it should, regardless of how insensitive or out of place their diatribe is.

I tend to know who athiets are - because they are so busy telling everyone at any chance they get. Noone is trying to convert athiests - so why are so many athiests trying to convert others?

In our generic societies most practicing christians, for example, go out of their way to wear any symbols with discretion. Faith is something to discuss at the approriate time. Those who display their beliefs, such as some Muslim women, are often shunned or treated with scorn.

But so many athiests seem to think that their convictions should be discussed at work, in the pub, in fact anywhere they might get an audience. Here is a tip - nobody cares.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post

[KOTLP]

I'm tempted to check it out, but is there anything truly insightful that hasn't been debated ad nauseam in the history of philosophy the past 2500 years?

I've been somewhere between an atheist an agnostic for most of my adult life, but Dom I have to say your post just sounds disrespectful. Some of the most brilliant and open minded professors I've ever had were theists, and while I may not agree with them, I sure as heck respect their beliefs. To come across like anybody who believes in God is foolish is just disrespectful to men and women who spend their lives thinking hard about these questions come to different conclusions than you and I.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to be able to pinpoint the time that the athiests took over the role of ramming their way of life down other people's necks.

The majority of christians gave this up decades ago. But it seems that so many athiests feel the need to evangelise. And this takes place wherever they feel it should, regardless of how insensitive or out of place their diatribe is.

I tend to know who athiets are - because they are so busy telling everyone at any chance they get. Noone is trying to convert athiests - so why are so many athiests trying to convert others?

In our generic societies most practicing christians, for example, go out of their way to wear any symbols with discretion. Faith is something to discuss at the approriate time. Those who display their beliefs, such as some Muslim women, are often shunned or treated with scorn.

But so many athiests seem to think that their convictions should be discussed at work, in the pub, in fact anywhere they might get an audience. Here is a tip - nobody cares.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Christianity is a proselytizing religion. It hasn't abandoned it and never will. Proselytizing is of its essence.

"No one is trying to convert atheists." What? They used to just be killed, and there are plenty of people who still regard them as subhuman or unclean, all around the world. As has been the history of religions, especially the "revealed" religions.

To try to turn it around so that the atheists are the ones chewing people's ears off with their ideas, and who have been killing, jailing, warring with, stealing from, and economically and socially depriving and ostracizing religious people throughout history, is disingenuous in the extreme. No honest appraisal could agree with your own.

Let me know the next time some atheists win a seat in congress, try to inject the equivalent of school prayers into the school system or before legislative meetings, put some sort of commandments in courthouses, or try to work "definitely NOT under God" into a pledge of allegiance children are either force outright to recite in school or must be willing to risk social ostracization and poor grades not to say.

I'll wait.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to know who athiets are - because they are so busy telling everyone at any chance they get. Noone is trying to convert athiests - so why are so many athiests trying to convert others?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's similar to why activists try to get their arguments in the spotlight, to wake people up. They also think that they can change with a few words of reason what took years of social conditioning (usually perpetrated by parents) to instill. It's a bit insane to think that can be overcome, but there are good intentions, in a "Zeroeth law of robotics" sense.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm tempted to check it out, but is there anything truly insightful that hasn't been debated ad nauseam in the history of philosophy the past 2500 years?

I've been somewhere between an atheist an agnostic for most of my adult life, but Dom I have to say your post just sounds disrespectful. Some of the most brilliant and open minded professors I've ever had were theists, and while I may not agree with them, I sure as heck respect their beliefs. To come across like anybody who believes in God is foolish is just disrespectful to men and women who spend their lives thinking hard about these questions come to different conclusions than you and I.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a critical and unfortunate mistake.

Not respecting someone's beliefs does not mean either not respecting them or disavowing their right to have those beliefs. Everyone can, and unfailingly will, have their own ideas and viewpoints until they draw their last breath, whether they wish it differently or not and whether or not they wish to take responsibility for either having them or developing and refining them, or uttering them. We WILL disagree, and that's human and okay in any society that gives a hoot about freedom. It's not cruel, immature, or disrespectful; it's just being alive and being an individual organism.

We have no obligation of any kind to respect anyone's beliefs. Beliefs vary in worth, and some are patently awful or ridiculous. (Not a big believer in female circumcision, myself. Don't think it makes for a better, more virtuous, or happier individual or society -- but that's just me.) It can be well argued that we have the obligation to not create unnecessary strife or discomfort by being rude about our beliefs or constantly yapping about them. And we can be fairly judged ourselves for our ability to let people have their ideas without shaming them for them, haranguing them, or trying to turn others against them.

Those who feel differently on this board may well have their threads moved to Politics, and rightly so. Those who can't control themselves at parties won't be invited to them in the future, either. But as a matter of private conscience, nobody should have to pretend to respect a belief -- only respect for a person and that person's own rights is required or even appropriate. One should feel under no obligation to lie to others about the things one values, or try to hide them just because they are less popular. We just don't need to beat each other about the head with it, is all.

I've been an atheist all my life, but many of my best friends have been born-again Christians and fundamentalists. We got along fine, though neither of us felt obligated to pretend we respected the other's beliefs. We just learned to realize that people with all kinds of beliefs can be good people, and that the true test of a person's worth may well be better shown by his daily behavior than by something he professes or reads about.