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#1
11-18-2006, 12:19 AM
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Too Aggressive?
Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game Limit: $1/$2 8 players Converter Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, Hero calls. Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3SB, 2 players) SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, SB calls. Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players) SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, SB calls. River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players) SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, Hero calls. Results: Final pot: 8.5BB I figured on the turn I had the best hand because I couldn't see him not betting a king. When I got raised on the river I figured I was either crushed or he thought I had nothing. Thoughts? 
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#2
11-18-2006, 12:43 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
You're crushed 99% easy; frankly I'm shocked you weren't C/R'd on the turn, but since he didn't the river's an easy bet. It's hard to say your flop/turn play is "wrong" but if you can't see him not betting a king you just have to play more.
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#3
11-18-2006, 01:06 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
[ QUOTE ]
You're crushed 99% easy; frankly I'm shocked you weren't C/R'd on the turn, but since he didn't the river's an easy bet. It's hard to say your flop/turn play is "wrong" but if you can't see him not betting a king you just have to play more. [/ QUOTE ] I haven't been playing on full tilt that long, but its definitely not 99% crushed. I've seen at least a couple of river check/raise bluffs with ace high. You're right, I shouldn't have said "I couldn't see him not betting a king", but by the river I think I have the best hand more times than not. (I'm willing to hear arguments against this, thats why I posted the hand). Why are you "shocked" that I wasn't check raised on the turn?
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#4
11-18-2006, 01:25 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
McGahee, your comments are curious to me also. tell me more.
jj, any reads? without them I'd play the same as that river CR looks very suspicious (monster, random 2pr or a busted draw - there are a few out there). perhaps theres an argument for checking behind the turn with the intention of calling a river bet and betting the river if checked to. Anyone prefer that line over taken line? perhaps theres also an argument for checking the river if we assume that villain will only call/raise if we are beat? this is where reads help.
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#5
11-18-2006, 01:28 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't been playing on full tilt that long, but its definitely not 99% crushed. I've seen at least a couple of river check/raise bluffs with ace high. [/ QUOTE ] Show me when anyone did this after giving up initiative preflop by check/calling the flop & turn. [ QUOTE ] You're right, I shouldn't have said "I couldn't see him not betting a king", but by the river I think I have the best hand more times than not. (I'm willing to hear arguments against this, thats why I posted the hand). Why are you "shocked" that I wasn't check raised on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] Basically when he checks that flop he either wants to get to SD cheap with Ace high or he's planning on a turn C/R w/ KQ+. Waiting till the river is rare & dumb but it's never a bluff and it's a clear bet for you given the action.
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#6
11-18-2006, 01:35 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
[ QUOTE ]
McGahee, your comments are curious to me also. tell me more. jj, any reads? without them I'd play the same as that river CR looks very suspicious (monster, random 2pr or a busted draw - there are a few out there). perhaps theres an argument for checking behind the turn with the intention of calling a river bet and betting the river if checked to. Anyone prefer that line over taken line? perhaps theres also an argument for checking the river if we assume that villain will only call/raise if we are beat? this is where reads help. [/ QUOTE ] No detailed reads. I'd played at the table for a 20 minutes or so and he wasn't a maniac/idiot/calling station but I hadn't been involved with him, and i handn't noticed anything special. I bet the turn because I could have the best hand, and if I don't I still have 14 outs to improve. I also don't like checking the river because if he is a passive player I'm missing a bet. Plus, even some good players will call with ace high, something that would make sense given the preflop-turn action.
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#7
11-18-2006, 01:40 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
[ QUOTE ]
Basically when he checks that flop he either wants to get to SD cheap with Ace high or he's planning on a turn C/R w/ KQ+. Waiting till the river is rare & dumb but it's never a bluff and it's a clear bet for you given the action. [/ QUOTE ] I probably should have folded to the raise, especially since the pot wasn't that big. However to say "never" when talking about a 1/2 game is silly to me.
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#9
11-18-2006, 02:03 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
[ QUOTE ]
Contrary to popular belief, random river C/R bluffs are less common @1/2 than 5/10. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but never? Since we both agree I probably should have folded, how big should the pot be before I call (assuming it was still just the two of us by the river)? I think if I were getting 11-12:1 calling would be correct. I'm assuming you'd think it would have to be bigger?
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#10
11-18-2006, 02:24 AM
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Re: Too Aggressive?
I guess I'm not expressing this too clearly: I personally would muck but it's the least important part of the hand. The point is - you have to be cautious in the face of these out of tempo flop checks in HU situations. The turn decision is close (I can't really say your bet is 'bad' in this case because of your hand), and when he doesn't C/R the the river is an easy bet. That's all.
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