Dems - Sellouts or Just dumb?

[wacki]

I'm extremely happy that Ted Stevens and Sen Inhofe have been removed from their committee positions. The new democrat leaders are definitely putting forth the effort to change our countries energy infrastructure (at least on paper). However, I have some real doubts about their mental prowess.

For instance the House's energy plan heavily relies on biofuel.

http://www.house.gov/commerce_democr.../109nr45.shtml

Now anyone that knows anything about native biofuels realizes that it's simply not scalable. And corn based ethanol doesn't even get positive return unless you count the calories created by the 'animal feed' by product. Animal feed that requires the injection of antibiotics because it destroys the cows livers. Scientists say the energy return is so dismal they call it "recycled coal". When McCain ran against Bush he lost in key states because of the farmers vote. So I can understand why republicans would bend to the wills of ADM and similar organizations. However, I don't understand why dems do this with corn ethanol.

Then insert the Senate's plan:
http://democrats.senate.gov/energy/
Which says that ethanol is cheaper to produce then gas. If that's true then why isn't everyone using it? Seriously, that makes absolutely no sense. And for those of you that care to look up the numbers at the pump, remember that ethanol gets 30% less energy per gallon than gasoline. Also, ethanol is subsidized out the ass to the tune of $30 in subsidies for every $1 of profit.

I haven't seen any proof that the dems need to bend to ADM so I can't rule it out. So lets just pretend this is their only sin and they aren't that dumb.

So what else does the Senate do? Oh ya, they want to promote the hydrogen economy. I have not met a single chemical engineer or fuel cell physicist that believes the hydrogen economy is feasible. Heck, even Ulf Bosself of the European Fuel Cell Forum (whose sole purpose is to promote fuel cells) says "Hydrogen economy is a structure of mind, which has no backing by physics." Most of this comes from the insane amount of energy required to split water. Fuel cells are fine. There just isn't any hydrogen.

While the Senate is doing some things that the scientists agree are viable solutions they are doing a lot of absolute crap as well. It's hard for me to believe all of this is political pork. The house's plan is a complete disaster.

heh, it's better than the republicans but sometimes I have to wonder about politicians. Is this all pork? Who are they hydrogen voters? How the hell can that be political pork?

[Metric]

I'm too lazy to read the links -- are they deregulating wind and solar (i.e. allowing individuals to put up a windmill or solar cell and sell the power back to the grid)? Getting individuals involved in power production would be HUGE.

[canis582]

Is this like the E85 stuff they talked about on 60 mins? That program made it seem like ethonol was the greatest stuff in the world. ticktickticktick.

So you, wacki, the respected environmental guy says ethonol is and will be useless for a long time?

Isn't there going to be a day (in 50 years) when ethonol will be worth it?

[wacki]

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Is this like the E85 stuff they talked about on 60 mins? That program made it seem like ethonol was the greatest stuff in the world. ticktickticktick.

So you, wacki, the respected environmental guy says ethonol is and will be useless for a long time?

Isn't there going to be a day (in 50 years) when ethonol will be worth it?

[/ QUOTE ]

E85 is just 85% alcohol. The alcohol can come from anywhere. The media is horrible when it comes to reporting accurately on science. Ethanol from sugar can is viable. But to scale that up we have to cut down the entire rain forest. There are some forms of ethanol in the US like E3 biofuels:

http://www.e3biofuels.com/

E3 is +EV. But E3 isn't scalable. It depends on cow manure and there is only so much of that to go around. Corn ethanol is a complete joke. If you are at an engineering university you can ask any relevant professor. I will be shocked if you can find one that endorses corn ethanol. The holy grail of US based ethanol would be cellulosic, but that technology is a long long long ways off.

All of the scientists I know are in agreement that batteries are the solution to the future. But nobody talks about them and nobody really wants to invest in the R&D. The dissonance between what goes on in the scientific community and the mass media/political arena is mind boggling.

[hmkpoker]

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Is this all pork? Who are they hydrogen voters? How the hell can that be political pork?

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It doesn't have to be pork, it can just be an electable talking point. You are in the top <.1% of people as far as understanding how alternative fuels work, but the vast, vast, vast majority of the American voters don't. Most of the Democrats in this country see a commercial with a bunch of hipster birkenstock-wearing twenty-somethings in a corn field saying "think green, go yellow," and say "oh boy, those Democrats are really looking out for me, the little guy, in this period of a reduced supply of energy; I'mma go vote for them!"

"Renewable energy? From water? Could be readily available and cheap in a few years, just requires some research funding? Bush wants to block the funding because he's afraid of a loss of oil profits for him and his buddies, who the Democrats are going to tax to fund all this research? OoooooWHEE! I'm gonna vote me a Democrat!"

If the vast majority of voters thought that you could power the economy with pink elephant poop, wouldn't you make PEP research anumber one priority if you wanted to get elected? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[adios]

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heh, it's better than the republicans but sometimes I have to wonder about politicians. Is this all pork? Who are they hydrogen voters? How the hell can that be political pork?

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Would you be so kind as to contrast why this stuff proposed by the Democrats, that apparently you feel is worthless, is better than what the Republicans did in Congress? For something to be worse than worthless it has to do damage. I'm fairly certain why you feel what the Republicans wanted to do and did (if anything) is damaging but I think it's worth contrasting the two parties energy policies. Thanks.

[hmkpoker]

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All of the scientists I know are in agreement that batteries are the solution to the future. But nobody talks about them and nobody really wants to invest in the R&D. The dissonance between what goes on in the scientific community and the mass media/political arena is mind boggling.

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Aren't batteries just a means of containing energy?

[wacki]

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All of the scientists I know are in agreement that batteries are the solution to the future. But nobody talks about them and nobody really wants to invest in the R&D. The dissonance between what goes on in the scientific community and the mass media/political arena is mind boggling.

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Aren't batteries just a means of containing energy?

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Yes, but every minute of every day enough energy hits the planet to provide all the power we need. Making energy isn't that big of a deal. It's making energy when you need it, where you want it, that is the biggest challenge. You can only scale up renewables to about 20% because they are erratic.

[Stu Pidasso]

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Aren't batteries just a means of containing energy?

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To answer your question...Yes....

But if you think about it, thats exactly what fossil fuels are. Energy is extremely plentiful, the trick is gathering it and storing it in a useable form.

Stu

[hmkpoker]

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Yes, but every minute of every day enough energy hits the planet to provide all the power we need. Making energy isn't that big of a deal. It's making energy when you need it, where you want it, that is the biggest challenge. You can only scale up renewables to about 20% because they are erratic.

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So you're advocating solar photovoltaic energy, essentially.

I'm surprised, I thought that HHO gas was a decent way of storing the solar energy. I think you sent a link to something of that effect? (I'm probably wrong)