first hand tough spot on the river

omgwtfnoway · #1 11-14-2006, 11:43 PM

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1500
Hero: t1500

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
Hero bets t40, SB calls t40 (pot was t80).

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t120, 2 players)
Hero bets t100, SB calls t100 (pot was t220).

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t320, 2 players)
Hero bets t180, SB raises all-in t1340, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t1160 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: t680

first hand of the match so no reads obv. in hindsight (with the benefit of playing 35 or so hands with this guy) i'm pretty sure i was way ahead on this river but assuming this guy is not a retard (which he is) is it the right play to bet/fold the river? is check/fold better? i feel like bet/call is probably spew...enlighten me please.

Nichomacheo · #2 11-14-2006, 11:54 PM

I dont think this is horrible, but I wouldnt fold. Is this the level game you usually play (ie <$20?), because if it is, I think you have to call here. There are too many idiots that'll do this with crazy TJc type hands. If this was a $100 game, I dont think a fold is that bad. What would villian raise with that you can beat? A king calls and there are no obvious draws except maybe the gutshot 9T type hands that he could have missed. If he has Qx you split; if he has a kicker greater than an 8, you lose. I vote fold in a larger buyin game, but I wouldnt like it.

But... say your opponent is very good. You didnt raise preflop so you probably dont have something like QA, QK. If I were your opponent and I knew you were a thinking player, I would only really have to fear Q9, QT, QJ, and the remote 88. If he knew you could fold Q7 here, his push was brilliant and definitely +EV regardless of his holding. But... not a $5 opponent [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But if I knew my opponent knew I was a thinking player, I would definitely call with the Q7.

Whether or not your opponent knows you know he knows you're a thinking player, we'll, its tough to say.

Umhmm.

Nichomacheo!

Nichomacheo · #3 11-15-2006, 12:27 AM

OK ok... more...

After talking with Phenom, its pretty clear to me that if Villian had a better queen or a fullhouse on the turn, the villian would have raised your t100 bet.

AIM convo...

N: so... in a $200... easy call?
P: in a 5 easy call
N: ok, just making sure
N: and $200
P: no doubt
N: vs non-maniac?
N: why?
N: only beat a bluff
P: given the way it played...most likely IS a bluff...J10 likely
N: yeah
N: he played it consistently with a queen though
N: (hero)
N: ballsy of an opponent on first hand to raise ai when its likely your opponent has a queen
P: Q raises the turn on villian
P: what could he have that
N: thats very true
P: wouldnt play for stacks on the turn
P: only hand that has hero beat is KK or the river PP
N: 88? Q8?
P: 88 prolly wouldnt have been "slowplayed" pre...8Q still raises the turn
N: most of the time
N: i agree with all that

Smart guy this Phenom fella.

XxPenguinxX · #4 11-15-2006, 05:55 AM

Agreed. Call 100% of the time. If he's got a better Q or a boat - that's what bankrolls are for. I was stunned when I saw the fold.

lbiars · #5 11-15-2006, 10:26 AM

Definitely call here. The way you played it suggests you don't have a queen (betting the flop, especially) and it's likely to induce a bluff from an aggressive opponent. I would say the most likely hand that beats you here is Q8 or Q2, but even then, he will raise the turn about 50% of the time. Such a gross overbet on the river suggests he's trying to get you to lay down a pair that will beat his missed draw. I can't see folding here unless I know a lot about my opponent.

Lee