I'm Ready to Discuss It... (Hand from $650 PCA Qualifier)

Still stings a little, but I'm really curious to hear everyone's thoughts. I think we can get some good satellite vs. freezeout discussion from this because this hand is a great example of how the two strategies can (potentially) diverge.

36 players left. 19 get seats to Atlantis. 33 get their money back.

Average stack = ~25K
My stack = 13.2K

Blinds are at 400/800/a50.

Stacks at the table ranged from 6K to 100K (TheBeat had a monster stack), with most around 12K-20K.

Table just formed a few hands ago, but a few at the table had seen me earlier and would likely describe my play as "tight, but has ability to shove stack on a resteal if the time is right."

I am dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG+1. I raise to 2200. Folded around to the BB, with a stack of 11500, who just calls.

Flop comes K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

BB insta-shoves.

Interesting points for consideration that I can think of are:
1. The merits of a PF shove vs. standard opening raise
2. Range for BB in a satellite vs. an MTT (both pre-flop and after the shove)
3. How my flop decision might be COMPLETELY different in a satellite vs. a standard MTT

Just to add in some of my random thoughts:

1. I thought it was strange that BB would ever flat call PF in this spot with his stack
2. Him doing so immediately made me think of a planned Stop-n-Go
3. Him insta-shoving the flop didn't change my mind much
4. Just calling PF with AK would be silly.
5. So would shoving the flop with a K.
6. Are 1 through 5 too geared towards freezeout MTTs and not taking into account the fact that this is a satellite?

[Art Vandelay]

Any reads on BB or is this the first you've seen of him? I have a hard time believing a player being capable of a stop-n-go without reading him as a smart player.

No real reads on BB as I think he was one of the new players at the table.

You do raise a good point though.

[Rekwob]

i dont think you're close enough to the bubble or have a big enough stack to treat this differently than a normal freezeout hand, you're not going to win enough chips without putting your stack at risk at some point

[Art Vandelay]

Ok, without a read, I fold here. We still have 11k and good fold equity (not to mention the "bubble" of getting your money back to hopefully exploit some) and I've seen too many people who don't realize that shoving this flop with TP is a bad play to make me think he doesn't have a K.

Edit: I agree with rekwob that we aren't close enough to have too much a difference between satellite vs. freezout play.

[Kimbell175113]

If he's a true donk he could easily have A7 or xxs (prob one over on you), right? Either way I can't imagine anyone shoving with a K or better very often, but stop-n-go doesn't seem all that likely either. This hand is quite weird.

Get in thurr.

[Masquerade]

I would shove with two spades and bottom pair ... something like that ... where if you call I have enough equity but I don't want to check-raise you as then you'll be priced into call. I'd also shove with any king by the same logic - not sure why you discount this. In a satellite at this stage the aim is to take the pot down, not win bigger pots less of the time - even if that is more +EV. Therefore I don't see that the shove necessarily fits into a stop-and-go strategy.

As your M is 8 you shouldve just pushed allin to begin with and avoided all this. Here I fold.

[x00x]

[ QUOTE ]
Still stings a little, but I'm really curious to hear everyone's thoughts. I think we can get some good satellite vs. freezeout discussion from this because this hand is a great example of how the two strategies can (potentially) diverge.

36 players left. 19 get seats to Atlantis. 33 get their money back.

Average stack = ~25K
My stack = 13.2K

Blinds are at 400/800/a50.

Stacks at the table ranged from 6K to 100K (TheBeat had a monster stack), with most around 12K-20K.

Table just formed a few hands ago, but a few at the table had seen me earlier and would likely describe my play as "tight, but has ability to shove stack on a resteal if the time is right."

I am dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG+1. I raise to 2200. Folded around to the BB, with a stack of 11500, who just calls.

Flop comes K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

BB insta-shoves.

Interesting points for consideration that I can think of are:
1. The merits of a PF shove vs. standard opening raise
2. Range for BB in a satellite vs. an MTT (both pre-flop and after the shove)
3. How my flop decision might be COMPLETELY different in a satellite vs. a standard MTT

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the pf bet of 2200 --- at 3x+ I think is better , leaning more towards 4x if not a push. Your raise looks like a mid pp or Ax. If you've always underraised and he knows it then nm [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] --- as is you give him excellent odds to call and catch a flop (1.4k more into ~3.8k.)

After he calls if you have the pp he can beat you with the K, if you had Ax ditto.

As is fold on flop.

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to add in some of my random thoughts:

1. I thought it was strange that BB would ever flat call PF in this spot with his stack
2. Him doing so immediately made me think of a planned Stop-n-Go
3. Him insta-shoving the flop didn't change my mind much
4. Just calling PF with AK would be silly.
5. So would shoving the flop with a K.
6. Are 1 through 5 too geared towards freezeout MTTs and not taking into account the fact that this is a satellite?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think all of this is valid and it makes it a pretty easy call in a freezeout.

I never play satellites but, gay as this may sound, I don't think I'm putting another chip in unless I flop a 10.

Open pushing 10s UTG is surely bad?