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#1
11-10-2006, 02:38 AM
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Reraising or folding: a discussion
Me and BW and ImsaKidd are discussing the merits of reraising or folding.
Here is the situation: Villan is a relative unknown, 28/15 so laggy/tag whatever. 100bb stacks, Hero is TAG. All fold to villan in the CO, who raises 3.5xbb. You have 88 on the button. Your play? Assume no history between you. 
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#3
11-10-2006, 02:43 AM
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Re: Reraising or folding: a discussion
I personally call here, and im not sure that 88 is the best example here, but in general against an unknow I think it is best to reraise or fold most hands, and I think pps are an exception to that. But if you have history with villan and have a good read on him I think calling w/ position in situations liek this with a varity of hands may be better.
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#5
11-10-2006, 02:51 AM
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Re: Reraising or folding: a discussion
I don't see how reraising can be terribly profitable here. It seems like that's going to fold pretty much every worse hand and keep pretty much every better one around. Sure you'll have position, but you're going to be playing a big pot with a 'meh' hand that's not going to be able to take a check-raise on the flop unless you flop a set or *maybe* all non-face cards (but then, what's he calling you with preflop and check-raising you with on a little-card board that you beat?).
I don't mind calling and playing decent hands in position for a moderate sized pot. I'd do it with a wide variety of hands. Folding seems absurdly weak. I'd put it 3rd behind calling and raising.
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#6
11-10-2006, 05:00 PM
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Re: Reraising or folding: a discussion
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how reraising can be terribly profitable here. It seems like that's going to fold pretty much every worse hand and keep pretty much every better one around. Folding seems absurdly weak. I'd put it 3rd behind calling and raising. [/ QUOTE ] I have had people call my re-raises w/ much less that premium hands. Last night my 3 bets were called by 64s, KQ and 44. Whether or not someone will call a 3 bet light is obviously opponent specific. Additionally, I think, given villains range, he is going to fold enough to make this a profitable play. I think he will probably fold about 3 out of 4 times.
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#7
11-10-2006, 05:29 PM
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Re: Reraising or folding: a discussion
A lot of people are pointing out that reraising will probably show immediate +EV and +EV on the flop from the times villain folds. This is true, but it has nothing to do with the strength of 88. Until people start to figure you out, you have can make money 3betting random crap. The real issue is what hands complement your crazy 3bet equity, and what hands can be played profitably in other ways.
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#8
11-10-2006, 02:51 AM
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Re: Reraising or folding: a discussion
Honestly I probably raise 50% of the time and call 50% of the time because I think either is fine.
Pros of raising: --His range for opening in the CO is wide and 88 beats his range --You have good FE on flops even if you're behind, like he has 99-JJ and the board is Axx or KQxx --by just calling a lot of times you're forced to play for set value and you end up folding the best hand too often --always good to have the lead Pros of calling --you're in position so you can raise flop, float, etc. lots of moves open --calling guarantees you'll see a flop (as long as blinds don't rr). Raising re-opens the betting so sometimes you'll end up putting it 13bbs then have to fold to a 4-bet, or even worse, he just calls with AA/KK and cr your c-bet so you're out ~25+ bbs --sorta the same as the last, but calling loses the least against his monsters --keeps pot manageable, instead of a rr pot with 25+bbs in the pot, by calling pot is around 9bbs so there's more post-flop play (always a good thing in position) Probably lots of other stuff.
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#9
11-10-2006, 02:56 AM
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Re: Reraising or folding: a discussion
I second everything Keyser said.
Also, whether I decide to reraise or call depends on what has been going on in previous hands -- history between me and the PFR'r, how active I've generally been, how active he's generally been. There's a dynamic to be taken into account with decisions like these, and there's no black-letter "right" answer.
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#10
11-10-2006, 02:58 AM
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Re: Reraising or folding: a discussion
Should I post the entire AIM convo?
Kidd1698: man you need a better name Farseid1175: me? Kidd1698: i was gonna make DanBrightLol Kidd1698: for the chatroom Farseid1175: HAHAHA Farseid1175: ah id idn't name it Farseid1175: sadly Farseid1175: ok imo dan bright is wrong Farseid1175: he makes decent arguments but i think he is wrong Kidd1698: i knew going into this orange says call you say RR YeE oWnZ: wait up wait up Farseid1175: essentially vs. a LP raiser YeE oWnZ: baluga, answer my comment Farseid1175: kk i'll answer in here YeE oWnZ: but i just dont think theres as much value when he calls our RR pf and bet the flop...by that time, we are pure bluffing. we aren't extracting on a blank flop..because in that spot, i really don't want ot be called YeE oWnZ: is what i said Farseid1175: yeah Farseid1175: okay here is my response Farseid1175: 1) obviously we dont want to be called, and we are no longer extracting. We already extracted our value pf. Kidd1698: ill add in after you make your opening statement Farseid1175: (our flop Cbet i mean) YeE oWnZ: okay YeE oWnZ: one thing: how much value do you think there is vs. his calling range though? Farseid1175: 2) if you are playing extremely aggressive pf, you will be called light. I promise. So you are gaining value from pf. YeE oWnZ: i really don't think there is much Farseid1175: you are wrong YeE oWnZ: okay yeah, i agree there YeE oWnZ: as seen in the nevrborn post lol Farseid1175: Most villains Farseid1175: will not bluff you pf Kidd1698: so we';re talking about 100B stacks right Farseid1175: yeah YeE oWnZ: kidd: here is the situation Kidd1698: and whats villains stats/image Kidd1698: im behind lol YeE oWnZ: CO raises pf, I have 88 on the button with 100bb stacks YeE oWnZ: question is to rr or call Kidd1698: unknown right Farseid1175: lets assume TAG YeE oWnZ: relative unknown Kidd1698: okay Farseid1175: but like 25/18 tag or something YeE oWnZ: fine, assume tag Kidd1698: well lets think about his range Farseid1175: cause at 2/4 thats pretty much what he's going to be YeE oWnZ: agreed YeE oWnZ: his range? ATC YeE oWnZ: for his initial raise Kidd1698: well YeE oWnZ: connectors/broadways/pairs/whatever Farseid1175: he has, any broadways, any PP, any SC, 1 gappers, Kxs, Axs Farseid1175: a lot of stuff Kidd1698: range that opens vs range that calls your RR Farseid1175: sure Farseid1175: most of that range folds Kidd1698: what % of his range is he calling Farseid1175: which is good for us Farseid1175: well Farseid1175: at first, probably not much Farseid1175: which means we should be reraising with a wide range Farseid1175: you see that? Kidd1698: if hes unknwon then you probably havent 3 bet him before Kidd1698: i'd rather repop 74o than 88 here i think Farseid1175: Goo Kidd1698: vs unknwon Farseid1175: nonono Farseid1175: 88 flops sets Kidd1698: call Farseid1175: nonono i promise you guys Farseid1175: haha Farseid1175: vs an UTG raiser call Farseid1175: vs a CO raiser RR YeE oWnZ: okay, i can understand we are RR-ing for FE too Farseid1175: he has bad cards a TON Farseid1175: and he will fold and give you money Farseid1175: then, he will start calling with bad cards Kidd1698: do we really want FE with 88 orange? Farseid1175: and fold hte flop with money Farseid1175: then, he will start guess-bluffing Farseid1175: and we will flop a set and stack him Farseid1175: its +EV pf, +EV on the flop, and +EV at showdown Kidd1698: well, flopping a set and getting paid is not super easy YeE oWnZ: okay, heres one of the problems i have with rr-ing...i really like position (as anyone does)...and as stated before, i think we lose some positional edge when reraising Farseid1175: in a reraised pot? yes it is Farseid1175: with 100bb stacks? Farseid1175: nah Kidd1698: i mean YeE oWnZ: okay one more thing...when we start 3-betting more pf, he starts calling more pf YeE oWnZ: obv Farseid1175: correct Kidd1698: or 4 betting Farseid1175: rarely Farseid1175: but if he wants to 4bet thats cool, its spew anyway YeE oWnZ: okay, he'll start making more moves then , calling down lighter, etc Kidd1698: gah it depends so much YeE oWnZ: postflop that is Farseid1175: right Kidd1698: if he can 4bet air-ish hands or not Farseid1175: lets not worry about 4bets now kidd Kidd1698: alright Kidd1698: man such a tough spot YeE oWnZ: so i think that yeah, reraising for value pf is okay, but i mean, are we always going to call something like a Jxx flop when villan c/r-es YeE oWnZ: ai Kidd1698: what is xx Farseid1175: nonononono YeE oWnZ: blanks Kidd1698: like 72? YeE oWnZ: yeah Farseid1175: nononononono Kidd1698: never call? YeE oWnZ: yeah, i didnt think so Farseid1175: here is how it works Farseid1175: i will basically outline my game for you right now Kidd1698: i guess theres a big difference between J56 with FD and J72 YeE oWnZ: i mean, yeah, your rr-ing for value/fe/whatever...but, we really have turned our hand into a bluff, do you agree? Farseid1175: ps 9.6ptbb for 20k hands Farseid1175: booyatribe Kidd1698: okay baluga i am listening Kidd1698: Hey Baluga Farseid1175: if you bastards use this against me Farseid1175: haha Kidd1698: Sample Size Man called Farseid1175: hahahaah i know i know Farseid1175: he wants a bigger sample Kidd1698: He said hes coming to get you YeE oWnZ: continue Kidd1698: lol downswingaments Kidd1698: okay, sorry Kidd1698: continue brag Farseid1175: okay okay Farseid1175: just listen Farseid1175: we 3bet a lot Farseid1175: he calls light Farseid1175: we've already agreed this happens YeE oWnZ: sure Farseid1175: now, calling light=calling loose Kidd1698: and 4 betting, but we disregarding that now YeE oWnZ: f that , no 4-betting Farseid1175: loose means that he is going to miss the flop most often Farseid1175: correct? YeE oWnZ: yeah sure Kidd1698: yes Farseid1175: which means he will fold +50% to a cbet Farseid1175: yes? Kidd1698: yes Farseid1175: so, just right there Farseid1175: we are making money on him folding pf, and making money on him folding the flop YeE oWnZ: not if we start taking shots alot...i think given board texture, villans will start playing back and adjusting YeE oWnZ: we cannot assume that villan will just c/f everytime YeE oWnZ: when missing Kidd1698: but, what if you call preflop and raise his cbet on most flops Farseid1175: Orange: Farseid1175: villain will not c/f every time Farseid1175: sometimes he will have a hand Farseid1175: sometimes he will bluff us YeE oWnZ: sure Kidd1698: orange: he isnt calling/pushing 50% of the time Farseid1175: but the point is, we are playing better cards than him, in position, for a lot of money Farseid1175: and he gets frustrated and makes big mistakes Kidd1698: but baluga, proving that this situation is +EV is stupid, we know its +EV i think Farseid1175: i.e. nevrborn Kidd1698: whats nevrborn YeE oWnZ: yeah, but how often can we capitalize on those mistakes? that means that we will have to make those calls with 88 UI on Jxx board YeE oWnZ: s Farseid1175: I am saying in terms of an overall game strategy Farseid1175: no no it doesnt Farseid1175: i am not saying with 88 Farseid1175: lets say this Farseid1175: he has KJ, he raises, we 3bet with 88, he calls Farseid1175: flop is Q53 Farseid1175: he c/f to a cbet Kidd1698: okay so he made a mistake prelfop Farseid1175: few hands later YeE oWnZ: sure Farseid1175: he raises 99 pf Farseid1175: we 3bet with JJ Farseid1175: he calls Farseid1175: flop is 832 Farseid1175: you see the wheels turning? YeE oWnZ: JJ is alot different than 88 Farseid1175: no no i agree Farseid1175: but Kidd1698: true Farseid1175: without the 88 Farseid1175: we often dont get the JJ Kidd1698: yeah Kidd1698: shania baybee YeE oWnZ: okay, i understand the wide range, but thats not really the discussion YeE oWnZ: again, how often are you getting it in w. 88 UI postflop YeE oWnZ: in rr-ed pots Farseid1175: pfEV+postflopEV+shania>>> maybe stacking him if he hits a hand Farseid1175: pretty much never orange YeE oWnZ: nah Kidd1698: so your hand is a bluff? YeE oWnZ: yeah YeE oWnZ: you dont want a call on your cbet obcv Farseid1175: on the flop it is sure YeE oWnZ: obv* Kidd1698: err, semibluff i guess, unless you hit set draw YeE oWnZ: flop/thereonafter Farseid1175: haha Farseid1175: pf is value Farseid1175: flop is cbet Farseid1175: very standard YeE oWnZ: no no i agree...pf is value, but i just dont think theres tons of value on his calling range Farseid1175: well Farseid1175: i have a DB to prove thats wrong Farseid1175: *assuming we've done this a few times* YeE oWnZ: okay, but i still am not totally convinced Kidd1698: i dunno Kidd1698: since we basically turn our hand into bluffsville on flop Farseid1175: obv Farseid1175: and what Kidd1698: isnt it better to do this with something like 75 Farseid1175: if we smoothcall planning to raise most flops Kidd1698: and call 88 Farseid1175: and the flop is J73 Farseid1175: are we not in bluffsville? Kidd1698: crap were still bluffing YeE oWnZ: we are in pos :-) Farseid1175: sure Kidd1698: we can call there too YeE oWnZ: so we can do float/bluff raise/whatever Farseid1175: k so if raising is a bluff Farseid1175: sure Farseid1175: if we call Kidd1698: 88 WHY DO YOU TURN INTO A BLUFF SO MUCH YeE oWnZ: stop Farseid1175: we A) let him hit an overcard Farseid1175: B) let him 2nd barrel us YeE oWnZ: i'm not too concerned with him hitting a 6 outer Farseid1175: C) let him c/r us with good hands and draws Farseid1175: well YeE oWnZ: IF we bet the turn Farseid1175: 88 vs KJ Farseid1175: if it hits the river Farseid1175: 50/50 Kidd1698: we arent seeing the river Farseid1175: yeah but think about all the problems floating poses vs a good player YeE oWnZ: yeah, but his equity is reduced tons by the flop Farseid1175: its not like I don't know you're floating Farseid1175: if I have you beat Farseid1175: I am taking you flop call and your turn float YeE oWnZ: not if your mixing it in with calling with stronger hands like sets Farseid1175: and maybe your river bluff Kidd1698: just cause 88 vs KJ is a coinflip preflop doesnt really matter Farseid1175: sure sure YeE oWnZ: but yeah, most think you are floating Farseid1175: but you just dont have sets enough to make me think your float is a monster YeE oWnZ: yeah Kidd1698: he isnt calling a AJx flop, and he isnt seeing the river very often at all YeE oWnZ: i agree Farseid1175: okay Farseid1175: so we are folding A high flops? Farseid1175: if we smoothcall? Kidd1698: sometimes Farseid1175: ewwww Kidd1698: sometimes raise Farseid1175: so we call and let his KJ take us off our hands? YeE oWnZ: meh, depends on if im on tilt or something Farseid1175: so we raise and get called by AJ? Farseid1175: it sucks Kidd1698: well, A72 is a lot different from AJ9 Farseid1175: being the victim of aggression SUCKS Farseid1175: sure Farseid1175: lets say its A7s Farseid1175: *A72 YeE oWnZ: yeah, but isnt that how yves makes his money? tight enough and just make lighter call downs? Farseid1175: we call Farseid1175: no no no Farseid1175: Yves=pushes Farseid1175: Yves 3bets and c/rai and pushes constantly Farseid1175: hyperaggressive YeE oWnZ: guess you have to be when you play so few hands YeE oWnZ: nonethelss, continue Farseid1175: me too Farseid1175: exactly Kidd1698: 3betting pre or post baluga? Farseid1175: pre Kidd1698: what are yves stats? like 18/12? Farseid1175: yeah used to be Farseid1175: not sure now Farseid1175: i am 19/16 now Kidd1698: ok YeE oWnZ: [censored] YVES CONTINUE YeE oWnZ: lol Kidd1698: hahaha Farseid1175: hahaha Farseid1175: essentially Farseid1175: when you are the aggressor Farseid1175: you gain two things Kidd1698: we should summarize points Farseid1175: 1) the value inherent in aggression Farseid1175: 2) your opponents' huge mistakes Farseid1175: position just amplifies both of these Kidd1698: 1= FE? Farseid1175: sure, part of it Kidd1698: what are the huge mistakes in 2 Kidd1698: calling loose? Farseid1175: flop is K87 YeE oWnZ: i agree with first, but again, i really don't agree much with 2)...i dont think we get it in/make a shitton off our opponent's mistakes with a hand like 88 Farseid1175: villain is tired of this Farseid1175: has KT Farseid1175: and stacks off Kidd1698: huge mistakes = stacking him cause we tilt him? Farseid1175: BINGO Kidd1698: okay Farseid1175: Orange: i don't think we stack him with 88 too much YeE oWnZ: lets dismiss hitting sets at this point, they are 1:8 Farseid1175: i think we stack him cause we 3bet with a [censored] of stuff YeE oWnZ: okay yeah, opening your 3-betting range is fine Kidd1698: but huge relative value Farseid1175: and even very good players can't deal with it YeE oWnZ: i just dont think 88 is the hand to do it with Farseid1175: so then what, 99? Farseid1175: 77? Farseid1175: 87s? Kidd1698: maybe you're both right??? Farseid1175: for pair value? Farseid1175: 88 has SO many terrible flops YeE oWnZ: 87s is better for FE...i think you are nullifying 88 and your postflop positional edge Farseid1175: well, I disagree Farseid1175: haha Kidd1698: baluga- terrible flops after 3 betting or after calling? Farseid1175: after calling Kidd1698: theres a difference IMO YeE oWnZ: well, here Farseid1175: if you flatcall Farseid1175: and the flop has an overcard Farseid1175: you could be dead YeE oWnZ: after calling PF and on the flop, 88=87s YeE oWnZ: do you agree? YeE oWnZ: you are bluffing Farseid1175: sure YeE oWnZ: you are pure bluffing either way Farseid1175: sure i agree YeE oWnZ: so, i mean, yeah, i'm not saying i wont 3-bet pf w. 88 Farseid1175: yah Farseid1175: okay /discussion Farseid1175: orange can figure out his own path to glory ;-) Kidd1698: wait im still thinking about the bad flops thing YeE oWnZ: but i just prefer picking a better hand to do it with YeE oWnZ: i mean, i'm not trying to be closed minded or anything YeE oWnZ: i just ... i dunno Farseid1175: aha no i understand Farseid1175: but I will promise you one thing Farseid1175: the more aggressive=the more money Farseid1175: on all streets
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Hybrid Mode
