nlhu sng 18 hands

omgwtfnoway · #1 11-08-2006, 10:34 PM

******* Hand 1 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1500
Hero: t1500

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB raises to t60, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 2 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1480
BB: t1520

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t60, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 3 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1500
Hero: t1500

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero checks.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t40, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 4 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1480
BB: t1520

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t20 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t10

******* Hand 5 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1530
Hero: t1470

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero checks.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
Hero bets t30, SB raises to t80, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t50 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: t100

******* Hand 6 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1420
BB: t1580

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t60, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 7 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1560
Hero: t1440

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero raises to t80, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: t60 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 8 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1460
BB: t1540

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40 (pot was t80).

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t120, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t75, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t75 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t120

******* Hand 9 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1480
Hero: t1520

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB raises to t40, Hero calls t20 (pot was t60).

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t80, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t40, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: t80

******* Hand 10 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1480
BB: t1520

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t20 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t10

******* Hand 11 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1530
Hero: t1470

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero raises to t80, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: t60 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 12 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1490
BB: t1510

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40 (pot was t80).

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t120, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t75, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t75 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t120

******* Hand 13 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1450
Hero: t1550

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB raises to t60, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 14 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1530
BB: t1470

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t60, BB raises all-in t1470, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t1410 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t120

******* Hand 15 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1530
Hero: t1470

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB raises to t60, Hero raises to t200, SB raises all-in t1530, Hero calls all-in t1270.
Uncalled bets: t60 returned to SB.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t2940, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t2940)

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t2940, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t2940)

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t2940, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t2940)

Results:
Final pot: t2940

******* Hand 16 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t2940
BB: t60

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t20 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t10

******* Hand 17 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t70
Hero: t2930

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero checks.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
Hero bets t20, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: t20 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 18 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t2950
BB: t50

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t50, BB calls all-in t30.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t100, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t100)

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t100, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t100)

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t100, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t100)

Results:
Final pot: t100

comments on all hands are appreciated.

Al_Money · #2 11-09-2006, 12:54 AM

I would have just pushed hand 17 preflop. Other than that, nothing else seems way off.

Winenose · #3 11-09-2006, 04:33 AM

I would've raised hand 9 on the flop, to 120-160. Then if he calls, fired again on turn for ~180-200 or so.

What did he have in hand 15?

And why do you do random amounts for bets? Like hand 5, you bet 30 on the flop. Or the bets of 75. Is there a reason or you just like typing numbers instead of using mouse?

riverspecialist · #4 11-09-2006, 06:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And why do you do random amounts for bets? Like hand 5, you bet 30 on the flop. Or the bets of 75. Is there a reason or you just like typing numbers instead of using mouse?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume he is trying to keep his bets closer between 2/3rds or 3/4ths of the pot which becomes a habit if we're used to loose ring games that are usually raised preflop or singletable tournaments where bets of any sort get respected. We often get so comfortable with because it is so often correct and prevents giving away information. But at the begging of these tournaments you start out deep enough that you should really never bet less than the pot post flop in an unraised pot. Not until much later when implied odds have come down would i bet less than the pot.

Also, because its deep i thik you should loosen up. Are you playing tight to get more respect for bluffs and jam/fold later?

I dont think you need to raise 92s, but its ok. I probably limp that 90% and raise or fold 5%. Later you fold 96 on the button. In your situ i probably play that 80% and raise it 20%. I probably fold the 64s (esp cause he isnt raising too much yet), but do you do this automatically? It wouldnt be a bad call if your looking for spots to loosen up.

[ QUOTE ]
I would've raised hand 9 on the flop, to 120-160. Then if he calls, fired again on turn for ~180-200 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have just pushed hand 17 preflop. Other than that, nothing else seems way off.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, nothing bad. just giving you stuff to think about. also learning these too!

stay strong,

XxPenguinxX · #5 11-09-2006, 06:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But at the [beginning] of these tournaments you start out deep enough that you should really never bet less than the pot post flop in an unraised pot. Not until much later when implied odds have come down would i bet less than the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is hugely dangerous advice. One of the cardinal rules of betting is to only bet what you need to accomplish your aims. I find half pot bets are just as likely to take the pot down as full pot bets, and of course you don't really need to deny drawing odds so much HU. There are times a full pot bet is preferable (eg when you have a vulnerable hand you want to make sure you get as much fold equity as possible with), but generally I think it is very exploitable. You ensure your opponent folds when he has a worse hand, and you lose more chips when he has a better hand.

riverspecialist · #6 11-09-2006, 06:55 AM

thats only one of the cardinal rules. here are three others.

1. your bet size should generally be determined by the texture of the board, not your holding lest you give away information. You may want to skew this into a bigger bet when you have a more vulnerable hand or if you think your opponent is likely to call anyway. You may skew this down if you have an exceptionally big hand or if you think a smaller will get it done. Against more observant opponents be less inclined to skew. Against worse players, skew away!

2. the best way to get reliable information is to skew your bet size bigger. this is especially useful in the beggining when the pots and bets are so small compared to the stacks. you can call a the level1 (unraised) halfpot bet with anything, so it is unlikely to get "the job done." This advice would be bad if i said to use it all the time. i only said at the beginning. u need this info to protect your stack. you usually arent much better off halfpot betting than you would be to just check for deception.

3. When in doubt bet more. This will make your info more reliable like i said in #2. It also might be the extra push you need to get a someone to fold to your bluff. In valuebetting, betting a little extra is usually less of a mistake than underbetting . theres a simple math explantion for all 3 of the reasons to "bet more[when in doubt]" i think all 3 are in dave and ed's nl book.

further more, all 3 of those rules are mentioned in the book as well. if you arent familiar with these then this forum wont be enough, you need to stop playing and go get this book.

riverspecialist · #7 11-09-2006, 07:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is hugely dangerous advice.

[/ QUOTE ]
It cannot be HUGELY DANGEROUS. If wrong, whats the possible -EV? if he is playing a $50.00 match then chips are worth 50.00/1500 = .10/3 ~ 3cents.

a lv1 unraisedpot halfpot bet (20 chips) would cost 6cents and a full pot would be worth 12 cents. Assuming we get the extra 6cents back half the time then thats just 3 cents. Which is still a very generous estimate that assumes some worse case senario of me being amazingly DANGEROUSLY wrong.

Here is something that makes me wonder how wrong i could be:
[ QUOTE ]

I find half pot bets are just as likely to take the pot down as full pot bets and of course you don't really need to deny drawing odds so much HU.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just dont know where to begin with either of those points

[ QUOTE ]
There are times a full pot bet is preferable (eg when you have a vulnerable hand you want to make sure you get as much fold equity as possible with), but generally I think it is very exploitable. You ensure your opponent folds when he has a worse hand, and you lose more chips when he has a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heads up, most hands are vulnerable. Even when they aren't ...see my cardinal rule #1. and the second point is again not a rule for HU flop play. Thats more of a rule for turn/river play and is less relevant in HU play where a call/fold probably has to do more with how your opponent percieves you than the size of your bet (in comparison to normal games).

Goldmund · #8 11-09-2006, 08:30 AM

Don't always fold after you missed and he bets on the flop...a prime example of where I would call is hand 9. Most likely he has Jack-sh*t here, but cannot know the same for you...call him, check to him on the turn and checkraise him if he bets small-ish, or bet into him on the river if he checks behind...With pairs as in hand 12 (77) often just call because oppt has shown a tendency to fold to most preflop raises, and winning the blinds is not yet a big issue. You might be able to win a big pot if you flop a set or win the blinds anyway with a flopbet. Goldmund

XxPenguinxX · #9 11-09-2006, 11:04 AM

Riverspecialist:

OK, perhaps my rhetoric was a little strong - it's probably not hugely dangerous. But I do think it's wrong.

For a start, you quote NLTAP (which I certainly have read) - although you should bear in mind that NLTAP is primarily aimed at cash games as opposed to tournaments, and in no way discussed HU play specifically, so it should be taken with a pinch of salt. You do make some interesting points, though. I suppose my reactions to them are as follows:

1. The way I avoid giving information away is to use half pot bets almost all the time. I use them equally when I am bluffing, drawing or value-betting. Sometimes I mix in some different size bets just to keep things interesting, but with either a particularly strong hand or a particularly weak hand. By betting two polar opposites the same when I vary my bet size, information leakage is very limited.

2. I don't bet to gain information in HU play often. I bet to win the pot, or I bet for value, or I bet to build the pot in case my draw hits. An exception would be with a hand like 99 on a Q83 board, where it would be hard to know where I stand - I'd definitely bet there for information just because I'd expect a Queen to raise me.

3. The problem with betting more when in doubt is that in tournament HU play, every chip you lose goes directly to your opponent to use against you. You can't buy back in as you can in the cash games NLTAP contemplates. If in every pot you lost, you lost 2BB more than you needed to, those 2BBs are going to stack up far quicker in HU than in full ring.

Maybe a couple of examples would serve to illustrate my point.

Say you both have even stacks of 1500 after 15 hands of the SNG. The blinds are 10/20 still. You are dealt AQs, and raise to 60 from the SB/B.

Scenario 1 - you have been betting the pot when in doubt postflop

I call in the BB with 76s, knowing that if I hit I should be able to make money by check-raising your pot sized bet. The pot is 120.

Now, let's look at two possible flops:

Flop 1

J 7 6 rainbow

I check, you bet 120, I check-min-raise to 240. You are likely to call here, thinking I might be drawing and/or that both your overcards are good.

If the turn bricks, and I lead into you for half the pot (240), you might call, or you might lay it down. After that it gets convoluted, but suffice to say you've lost 360 chips on this hand, even if I don't manage to extract from you on the turn.

Flop 2

Q 8 3 rainbow

I check, you bet the pot, I fold.

You hit a good flop, I miss, I fold.

Flop 3

Q 8 4 with one of my suit

I check, you bet the pot, I fold.

As above.

Flop 4

Q T 3 with two of my suit

I check, you bet 120, I call.

Say the turn completes my flush, and I check to you again - what do you do now? Bet the pot again "for information", thereby committing 1/3 of your chips to the hand? Bet smaller and fold to a raise? Check behind despite flopping TPTK and fold to my river bet?

Scenario 2 - you have been making half pot bets postflop

I might well call with suited connectors, but I wouldn't necessarily - I might be concerned that I won't get paid off enough when I do hit to make up for the times I have to fold when I miss. For the sake of this argument, let's say I call.

Flop 1

J 7 6

I check, you bet 60, I min-raise to 120, you call.

Turn bricks, I bet 120 - you don't feel very invested with a marginal hand, so you fold. Loss: 180 chips.

Flop 2

Q 8 3 rainbow

I check, you bet 60, I fold.

Same outcome, lower risk.

Flop 3

Q 8 4 with one of my suit

I check, you bet half the pot. Now, I might be tempted to call here. You might have missed, plus I've got a gutshot and might pick up a flush draw on the turn. It would be a bad call, as it happens, but one that is not impossible to make. By betting the smaller amount, you've got me to call off chips with a worse hand. And imagine I pick up that flush draw - you're extracting from me again on the turn, even though I only have 13 outs on the river.

Flop 4

Q T 3 with two of my suit

I check, you bet half the pot, I call.

Regardless of what happens afterwards (and if the flush hits and you want to check/call down or bet the pot to find out where you stand, it's a lot cheaper), betting the pot didn't make me fold my draw any more than betting half the pot did. So what did you gain by putting those extra chips in the pot?

I hope these are helpful in illustrating my point. In all of them, you are either the same or better off by betting half the pot than the whole pot. Please do respond - I'm enjoying the debate.

lbiars · #10 11-09-2006, 12:55 PM

I would've called his raise preflop with 46s and raised his limp preflop with 22. These are great drawing hands (well, technically the 22 is a made hand) that when hit, tend to get paid off because of the deceptive board. Raising with the 22 accomplishes 2 things: It builds the pot in case you hit your 2, and he could lay down preflop giving you the pot right there.

Lee