3/6 JJ - Standard?

Harv72b · #1 11-08-2006, 01:19 AM

I'm riding a wave of bad cards & playing pretty conservatively anyway following a big downswing, so my table image is probably very rock-like. I have been chatting it up amicably with both villains, though, and showing down winner after winner against them.

Button is 69/11/2.8 over about 100 hands. She loves to bluff, especially on late streets, and will peel the flop & even turn with literally any two cards in order to set up her bluffs. She's been caught numerous times by everyone at the table, but keeps trying anyway.

BB is 48/27/1 over the same number of hands, and most of those PFRs have been isolation attempts on Button. Those two have quite the game within a game going, to the point where I've seen him raise the turn & bet the river with K high in heads up pots against her (and win at showdown), but he's been much more conservative against me. About two orbits earlier I had 3bet his UTG raise with AKs, and he just called the 3bet and check/called to showdown with KK after an ace high flop.

So, that makes the bet/fold on the turn here pretty easy, right, even with the pot size? I felt like I had to bet the turn here, as Button would bet 100% of the time if I checked and BB would raise to isolate on her with a lot less than top pair. Given all that, standard? Does anyone prefer just folding to his flop bet?

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.5SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.25BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB raises, Hero folds...

Fonzi · #2 11-08-2006, 01:50 AM

I like this play, IMO villain has to expect a call on this one. Therefore he's less likely to be bluffing. Worth noting, however, I have made laydowns like this with a calling station behind me, and when the villain was called down I have been surprised to see him with A8 or such. Thats short hand though.

nickg1532 · #3 11-08-2006, 01:54 AM

i think this is fine given your reads. sometimes i convince myself that he's making a move and i call down, but i thinking folding is proper

latefordinner · #4 11-08-2006, 02:03 AM

I think I usually call flop to raise an undercard turn and hopefully drive out the button on the turn if I think she'll often peel for two more small bets just as easily as for one.

I don't know how I feel about folding to the turn C/R here, especially as the pot is HU now and starting to get bloated. I think I'm often calling down here. an ace high flop with a pf tight 3 better that keeps betting (when I have KK) is much scarier to me than this board against an UTG raise and flop raise.

So I think he's much more likely to be making a move with A8 or the like.

But i'm a bit of a showdown monkey.

gehrig · #5 11-08-2006, 03:01 AM

call down theres like eigh treasons to think this guy is FOS

duckman · #6 11-08-2006, 03:11 AM

I think this was a a good laydown given flop action. He has no reason to think you are folding (unless by conservative play he has seen you make a lot of these folds).

Harv72b · #7 11-08-2006, 04:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
(unless by conservative play he has seen you make a lot of these folds).

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah...I just wasn't getting a whole lot in the way of starting hands. When I did enter the pot with a raise I'd been hitting all night long, which if anything made me think it was extremely unlikely that he was taking this line with anything less than queens up. The KK hand wasn't the only time he'd check/called down against me with pretty strong hands.

jakbse · #8 11-08-2006, 05:10 AM

No way I'm folding the flop. I think the bet/fold line on the turn is perfect and I wish I was capable of making the same.

Bullitos · #9 11-08-2006, 05:28 AM

nice hand, you play perfectly according to your read. That's good if your read is good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ajm36 · #10 11-08-2006, 06:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BB is 48/27/1 over the same number of hands, and most of those PFRs have been isolation attempts on Button. Those two have quite the game within a game going, to the point where I've seen him raise the turn & bet the river with K high in heads up pots against her (and win at showdown), but he's been much more conservative against me. About two orbits earlier I had 3bet his UTG raise with AKs, and he just called the 3bet and check/called to showdown with KK after an ace high flop.

So, that makes the bet/fold on the turn here pretty easy, right, even with the pot size?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what makes the fold correct (not easy) is the info you've given plus the way he played the flop and turn. He leads the flop and then calls your raise. Then he c/r you on the turn. He's trying to get you to put more bets in on the expensive streets. If he had either c/r the flop or only c/r the turn, I would be more inclined to call down. His play is pretty common as a non-bluff play which differs from the c/r flop lead the turn line with TP posted on these forums.