($38 6 handed) Fold this 2 pair?

[Metnut]

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t30 (5 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2060)
Hero (t1590)
Button (t2865)
SB (t1950)
BB (t535)

Preflop: Hero is in CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, Hero calls t30, Button calls t30, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, BB checks

Flop: (t105) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets t60</font>, Button calls t60, BB calls t60

Turn: (t285) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets t270</font>, <font color="red">Button raises to t540</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>


It seems really unlikely based on the play that villain has a set of any kind, but KQ and AJ both would be consistent. No real read here, hadn't played with villain before. What would most of you do here?

[DJA]

Generally you are beat, but button could easily have JT or AK or AQ depending on whether he would raise with this preflop.

The way he bet the turn, villian wants a call though.

I would make a crying call, and hope to suck out if behind.

[AMT]

i dont know why you decided to lead less on the flop and more on the turn...id be leading more on the flop and probably shut down without a read on the turn

[Sparta45]

If you raise this preflop, it makes it a lot easier to play out....

[AMT]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise this preflop, it makes it a lot easier to play out....

[/ QUOTE ]


i forgot it was 6m, yes raising it PF is also the way to go here

[Metnut]

I led less on the flop since the pot was smaller and more on the turn since the turn was a complete blank that almost certainly didn't hurt me. Am i making a mistake by not betting more on the flop here?

[Metnut]

Do you really think so? With the blinds this small, i like to limp here so i dont committ myself unless i hit big. If im gonna play AT here, you think it has to be for a raise?

[Sparta45]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think so? With the blinds this small, i like to limp here so i dont committ myself unless i hit big. If im gonna play AT here, you think it has to be for a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen....you're deep enough where you can raise and start building a pot with an above average hand. This is a 6 handed table, so A-T is even stronger than usual....I mean.....you're basically raising it in the CO. You're going to lose more money by trying to flop the nuts for free. Case in point.....in this hand you flopped a really strong hand....in fact, you generally will not flop a hand this strong in ten or 20 tries.....yet, you still really don't know what to do post flop because of the way you played it. This hand should absolutely be raised preflop.....unless you're trying to mix up your play for some reason, but that's a topic for another time. Generally speaking, this hand is a clear raise.

[Metnut]

everything you are saying is right, but i don't really see how the raise gives me more information here. a lot of players are still gonna call an opening raise in position with KQ, AJ and other hands that beat me on this flop. its gonna be difficult to stack someone with AT generall, the only real edge im seeing from my point of view from raising is an increased chance to take a pot down with a cont bet if i miss.

by just limping i can hit an A or T, and try to keep the pot small, instead of committing 20-25% of my stack to get real information. this hand is definetely an outlier with the action flop but even in this case, without getting results oriented, there will still be a tough decision to make but ill have less of a chance to make that decision since the pot will be bigger.

if im only raising AT in this spot 25-30% of the time, is that a major leak? or is this something a lot of people disagree with... sorry if im being annoying but im trying to really understand why this hand gets easier to play with a raise.

[Sparta45]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't really see how the raise gives me more information here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising almost always gives you more information. The fact is that if he has KQ, you're most likely going down whether you raise or fold.

For example, right now your opponent probably either has KQ or a strong A. If you had raised to 90, then bet 200 into a flop of...
Flop:[/b] (t225) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)

then if he has a KQ most donks just smooth call and he might raise some suspicisions. You might go broke anyway, but raising still gives you a *slight* advantage over how you played it. On the other hand a strong A, probably pushes all-in and you can call and be fairly sure you have the best hand. Poker is a game of small edges and that involves small edges anywhere you can get them. Whether it's in raising or whether it's in how much you raise or your position or having notes on a player. And raising preflop gives you a slightly bigger advantage than limping.

[ QUOTE ]
the only real edge im seeing from my point of view from raising is an increased chance to take a pot down with a cont bet if i miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If you don't want this edge, then I'll take it. 2/3rds of the time, you're going to miss the flop. 2/3rds of the time your opponent will miss the flop. So why would you not try to make some money when that happens?

[ QUOTE ]
by just limping i can hit an A or T, and try to keep the pot small, instead of committing 20-25% of my stack to get real information.

[/ QUOTE ]

First let me correct the factually incorrect part of your statement. You're not committing 20-25% of your stack. If you raise to 90 you're committing 6% of your stack.

Second, you don't win tournaments by trying to keep the pot small when you likely have the best hand. With your A-T you likely have the best hand. So you raise. On the flop you likely have the best hand again.....so you bet more. You're committing money to the pot when you likely have the best hand. That's how you win.

Third, keep in mind all the times where you will be outflopped (for free might I add) when you limp with hands like AT. It will be often and you'll lose a lot by doing that. Not to mention that when you finally pick up AA or KK or whatever you deem strong enough to raise with preflop, you're going to scare any remotely observant opponents you have into folding because it's the first time you've raised the entire tournament.

[ QUOTE ]
if im only raising AT in this spot 25-30% of the time, is that a major leak?

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Yes, IMO it is a major leak. Especially because in SNG's, the blinds go up so fast that you don't have time to be dicking around. You're playing a 6-max game which by nature is faster and more aggressive than a standard 9 man SNG. And you have A-T in the CO. You want to raise and build a pot. I probably raise 98-99% of the time here with A-T (when I raise here that is...sometimes I fold, but again....irrelevent right now).

[ QUOTE ]
sorry if im being annoying but im trying to really understand why this hand gets easier to play with a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not being annoying. The point of the forum is so that we can all discuss poker and analyze our play and improve.