Playing out of position against loose and tricky opponents

[Kharlog]

I have a lot of problems playing against loose and tricky or aggressive opponents out of position. Mostly when i'm defending blind or playing on SB against BB. Today I played against a player that never folded BB when I raised from SB (is that correct play when there is no rake? How does rake affect on that strategy?). If he just called (most of the time he 3-betted) and i c-betted almost everything he always called or raised the flop. If he called he was very likely raising the turn. Now here is some hands I played against him today (i lost 35BB to him):

This is pretty standard, I think. A hand like this happened about 5 times. I don't know what I can do.

WPEX
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 3BB

This is another example:

WPEX
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: /
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Button folds, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 4BB


This is a bit overplayed imo.

WPEX
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 7BB

I tried some different play here. And this is what happens.

WPEX
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Button folds, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 4BB

What do you think of these hands? I know my postflop sucks probably but is there something I need to fix in preflop play too?

[Bill Maher]

Hand 1: I'd call down. Decent equity I would imagine, plus some hidden/split outs when behind. If the turn/river came Q/J I'd probably fold though.

Hand 2: Checkfold turn. You're never ahead and he's never folding.

Hand 3: Usually checkfold the turn.

[borgir]

hand 1 : reraise bluff 30% of the time, if called , check/call to the river because he have J6 offsuit
hand 3 : check/call to the river 50% of the time because he cant prevent himself to bluff this ace
hand 2 : fold 90%, he slowplayed the flop

any comments?

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a lot of problems playing against loose and tricky or aggressive opponents out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the club. Your membership card is in the mail. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Today I played against a player that never folded BB when I raised from SB (is that correct play when there is no rake? How does rake affect on that strategy?).

[/ QUOTE ]

From a strict pot odds perspective, if he believes that he has two live cards (and he often will), then he's correct to at least call your raise; the pot is laying 3:1 to him preflop. If he also believes that he can outplay you postflop then he's even more correct to do so...and from the sounds of your intro, I can see how he would at least think he could. I know that, me personally, against all but a megarock's SB openraise I'm playing pretty much anything.

I don't think the rake really affects things. If there were antes involved in the game, then he would be even less likely to fold preflop...but there aren't.

It's tough to really offer advice on any of your individual hands (except that hands 2 &amp; 4 are the same) without knowing all the details of the metagame between you two--it sounds like there was a lot. The best advice I can offer you is:

-Don't feel like you have to enter the hand every time it's folded to you in the SB, especially against a player like this. It's okay to fold there, even with some halfway decent hands (I would not have folded any of the hands you posted either, though).
-Mix up your play. Particularly when the game is 3-handed, you need to vary your patterns--those two opponents are seeing a lot of you, and getting a feel for when you do &amp; do not have a hand. Bet sometimes when you would normally check/raise. Check/raise when you would normally bet. Check/call when you'd normally check/raise, etc.
-Every once in a while, just call down with a high card hand. Ace high, king high, even queen high maybe. Not really at random, but you should also be paying attention to your opponents and picking up trends in their betting patterns--if something looks odd, it probably is.

All that being said, I'm relatively new to short-handed play, so I'm sure someone else here with a lot more experience can offer some better tips. But these are exactly the kind of situations that make me love poker so much...getting inside my opponent's head and running circles around his game.

Not that it always works out that way, which I guess is why I'm driving a Hyundai instead of a Hummer. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Kharlog]

Oops, it looks like i posted two same hands accidentally. Thanks for excellent advices. I'm new to short handed and newbie in HU or 3 handed situations. So these advices come very handy. Especially thanks for profound thoughts about this topic Harv72b.

[colgin]

The best advice here is to get a different seat. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

If you can't or don't, then just fold the weaker of your holdings pre-flop since your edge against this guy is small or negative. For the hands you do play, try to use his aggression against him. Let him bet some of your hands for yuo and try to see showdown cheap where you have a showdownable but not terribly strong hand. When you have a strong hand try to bet/three-bet the flop or check-call the flop followed by either a bet/three-bet line or c/r on the turn. If you do this for a while he may begin to be less willing to auomatically bet the turn on you in later hands.

Hand 1: Against a typical player I would just check-fold the flop or peel and then c/f the turn unimproved. Against this player I am calling down unimproved and looking him up. You may well lose the hand, but will hopefully get some valuable information as to the types of holdings he will bet with.

Hand 2: Fold pre-flop. You can't have much of an equity edge, if any, here and you are OOP against a tough/tricky player.

Hand 3: Capping here is OK pre-flop although calling is fine too. Given your cap I would lead the flop as you did. When he calls on the Ace high board I check the turn. Betting may let the aggressive player raise you off the best hand. If you think he is so loose as to call the flop with hands like KT, QT, KJ, QJ then you can call down wirth the nut no pair here. Otherwise I just check-fold the turn given that you have 6 outs against a medium or split pair and are drawing dead against Ax.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a lot of problems playing against loose and tricky or aggressive opponents out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's normal.