What is the call?

KC50 · #1 11-02-2006, 12:24 PM

Local cardroom rule is:

(a.) Verbal statements which are clearly audible by and directed to the dealer shall always have precedence over actions and gestures and are considered binding on the player whose turn it is to act.

(b.) A player who checks, calls or raises out of turn must take that action when it is their turn to act if that action is still applicable.

Here's the scenario which actually came up in a No Limit Texas Holdem game.

Player A states "bet" before placing any chips into the pot.
Player B announces "call" after hearing player A's statement and before any bet has been made.

What are each players obligation?

My stand on Player A (whose turn it is to act) made the verbal statement ("bet") and is binded by (a. above) and is obligated to bet.

My stand on Player B who declared "call" out of turn is also obligated to call being binded by (b. above) whatever Player A now decides to bet.

Player B is the Donk in this situation given the rules as described above. Player A now has the best of both worlds now having to bet and knowing Player B must call he can bet the minimum if he was going to bluff or go all-in if he has the nuts or feels he has his opponent beat.

You make the call.

KC

Texibus · #2 11-02-2006, 01:13 PM

I don't know he didn't even really complete his action on the bet yet. So, is it really the players turn to actually have the action on him. I hear people call BB all the timeand realize someone poped it up, and pull it out. They clearly said call, but obviously they don't want to play the hand. I still think this makes his decision easier.

Ghazban · #3 11-02-2006, 01:14 PM

Rules are clear; what's the issue?

AngusThermopyle · #4 11-02-2006, 01:37 PM

Three levels.
1. Totally anal. PlayerA bets whatever he/she wants, from minimum to all-in, and PlayerB must call, but cannot raise.
2. Totally lax. PlayerA bets whatever he/she wants, and PlayerB can call or fold, but not raise.
3. Middle ground. PlayerA bets whatever. PlayerB must put in at least the minimum bet (ie, he cannot get away free). He/she can then call the full bet, or fold.

Sounds like the rules were written with Limit in mind, where a "call" of a bet is always the same amount. Your rigid interpretation gives PlayerA way too much leverage.

Ghazban · #5 11-02-2006, 02:08 PM

This happened in a WPT event a couple years ago but I don't know what the ruling was (obviously, televised final table tournament rules do not necessarily apply to a small stakes cash game but it is a place to start). The bettor was bluffing so he obviously made the minimum legal bet and the caller ended up calling it (I don't recall if he had the option to raise).

PantsOnFire · #6 11-02-2006, 03:24 PM

My ruling would be that Player A still has to make a bet. If he bets the minimum, Player B has to call that bet.

If Player A bets more than the minimum, Player B can retract his call and decide a new action.

Player B gets a warning. If it happens again, then action against Player B is possible.

grdred944 · #7 11-02-2006, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Player A states "bet" before placing any chips into the pot.
Player B announces "call" after hearing player A's statement and before any bet has been made.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is either completely obvious or I am really missing the boat here. Player 'B' is the nit. 'A' has not put any chips in the pot so can complete his action to whatever he likes; to include an all in bet. 'B' is obligated to call whatever that bet is since he verbalized his intentions.

PantsOnFire · #8 11-02-2006, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
'B' is obligated to call whatever that bet is since he verbalized his intentions.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a rule such that a player calling a bet but not being aware of the amount of the bet is allowed to reconsider.

For example, the button says call and throws in the amount of the BB but UTG has raised 3xBB and button didn't notice this. The dealer can then say to the button it is 3xBB to you and the button can then withdraw his call and fold or call 3xBB or even raise.

bav · #9 11-02-2006, 04:16 PM

You cannot force someone to call any size bet because they say "call" out of turn. I agree with Pants' ruling--Player A must put in at least a minimum bet, but if he puts in more than the minimum B is off the hook for the call. B gets told to slow down.

TheStation · #10 11-02-2006, 06:58 PM

KC50 - Which KC casino did this take place at?