30/60 Razz: Weird hand, strong read, still played badly, flame away!

Bartholow · #1 10-31-2006, 11:05 AM

After looking back at SOP it's clear I should fold to the reraise on 3rd. Feel free to tell me that in your replies, maybe it will sink in. Probably the rest of this looks really ugly to you guys too. Obviously on 5th I read him for a very smooth draw, so on 6th I figured a good chance he had double paired. Am I totally insane? Probably. Given my insanity, what to do on the river?

Razz ($30/$60), Ante $5, Bring-In $10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls

4th Street - (5.67 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.83 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (7.83 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___raises

River - (11.83 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7:diamond___????

Worldclass · #2 10-31-2006, 11:53 AM

FOLD ON THIRD
FOLD ON 6TH

lambchop · #3 10-31-2006, 12:21 PM

Well, by sixth you know he didnt start with an ace, and to reraise an ace on third in steal position I'd imagine he would have at least 3 or 4 underneath if not both. This is of course unless you've been stealing very liberally and this was a complete resteal. Either way, when you reraise him on sixth and he doesn't raise back you're obviously good and he can't beat a 9 low. By the time you get to the river, the best you can have in his eyes is an 8 low, so if he hits a 9 or better on the river he'll probably raise and fold if he doesn't hit. I say the best move is check/call, let him try to bluff if he misses and this way if he hits it's not another bet back to you.

2461Badugi · #4 10-31-2006, 01:59 PM

Taking a card off on third is fine. I seem to recall Sklansky even mentioning this, that a T is his boundary for defending something on third.

Sixth is good. You have to do this sometimes against people who have a clue, or you'll get run over.

On the river, if we check-call he'll play perfectly. If we bet-fold he'll play perfectly. Do we think he'll bluff here often enough to not check-fold? It's close enough to be player-dependent.

mscags · #5 10-31-2006, 06:56 PM

Well I think against someone that you have no chance of outplaying folding third would be a good idea. Against a more intelligent player you might peel and see what develops. Fifth street I think you have to fold to the raise. You are drawing to nothing. I don't mind the bet in case he has two pair now, but calling the raise leaves you drawing VERY thin IMO. Sixth is just a spew and I'm very surprised you didn't get three bet, even if he had double paired, he isn't going anywhere, and he still has about a bagillion cards to beat you. I guess betting the river is fine, but I really don't think it accomplishes folding any hands that beat you, but the pot is big now so it might be worth a shot.

HOWMANY · #6 10-31-2006, 08:49 PM

I'll be honest, I've agreed/not seen any errors in any hand I've seen you post, but this hand makes me want to vomit blood.

6th street here is so retarded. It's an extremely easy check/fold. THERE ARE TWO DEAD FOURS on third. Unless your opponent is playing his hand even worse than you are playing yours he is just calling your c/r to let you draw dead far, far more often than you actually have the best hand.

Check/call the river I guess, you built a huge pot with the losing hand, maybe you will miraculously have the pot slide your way now that you've improved slightly.

[ QUOTE ]
Either way, when you reraise him on sixth and he doesn't raise back you're obviously good and he can't beat a 9 low.

[/ QUOTE ]

The exact opposite is true if his opponent has anything resembling a brain.

2461Badugi · #7 10-31-2006, 10:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
THERE ARE TWO DEAD FOURS on third.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that, and it's a big deal.

HOWMANY · #8 11-01-2006, 12:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
THERE ARE TWO DEAD FOURS on third.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that, and it's a big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed it the first time I read the hand too. The dead fours change OPs line from one that is far too optimistic to one that is just plain lighting money on fire.

BTW, I agree with your comments about river line letting villain play perfectly. Unfortunately the pot has become unnecessarily bloated, so I personally lean toward check/calling and just hoping villain is a moron. I think that check/folding is a better option than bet/fold simply because I hate the idea of betting this river. Bet/call is sickeningly bad obviously, since the pot will be even bigger if you get raised, so he most certainly isn't expecting you to fold.

With the dead fours and the villain's 6th street play I'm expecting Hero to be drawing dead here very frequently, because if I was villain I would 3 bet Hero on 6th if I had 22334X or 22344X, as it makes all the sense in the world.

Bill King · #9 11-01-2006, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
THERE ARE TWO DEAD FOURS on third.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that, and it's a big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed it the first time I read the hand too. The dead fours change OPs line from one that is far too optimistic to one that is just plain lighting money on fire.

BTW, I agree with your comments about river line letting villain play perfectly. Unfortunately the pot has become unnecessarily bloated, so I personally lean toward check/calling and just hoping villain is a moron. I think that check/folding is a better option than bet/fold simply because I hate the idea of betting this river. Bet/call is sickeningly bad obviously, since the pot will be even bigger if you get raised, so he most certainly isn't expecting you to fold.

With the dead fours and the villain's 6th street play I'm expecting Hero to be drawing dead here very frequently, because if I was villain I would 3 bet Hero on 6th if I had 22334X or 22344X, as it makes all the sense in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get the raise w/ the open pair.. he's never folding for one bet there.

although at this point the hand is completely butchered.. you might as well bet the river and hope he paired up or caught real real bad.. one bet in this pot is the only thing that makes sense, b/c doing a c/f in this spot is just plain awful.. might as well get caught w/ your pants down than destroying your image.

Bartholow · #10 11-01-2006, 08:07 PM

Obviously I butchered this one, totally agree with everyone. Major FPS here.

Amusingly enough he DID pair the four like I thought (forgetting the two dead fours), and then despite STILL being a favorite he bricked the river and he checked after I checked and I won.