Standard, Genius, or Spewing? Different PS500+35 Hand

DonT77 · #1 10-30-2006, 04:33 PM

Like a lot of you I play a lot of online poker; literally hundreds of thousands of poker hands each year. Very little catches me by surprise anymore, and I feel like I know almost all of the standard betting lines; however, yesterday I encountered a unusual line that has had me wondering if this is a line I should be using more myself.

*********** # 33 **************
PokerStars Game #6818625800: Tournament #33694432, $500+$30 Hold'em No
Limit - Level II (60/120) - 2006/10/29 - 16:54:52 (ET)
Table '33694432 24' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: lyerly_ (4462 in chips)
Seat 2: LIDER (2720 in chips)
Seat 3: simontempler (9500 in chips)
Seat 4: Kel Dollars (15423 in chips)
Seat 5: Bjorg009 (10700 in chips)
Seat 6: dont77 (8520 in chips) - Button
Seat 7: legggggggggy (13840 in chips) - SB
Seat 8: mitzi2k2 (12000 in chips) - BB
Seat 9: Ryokan (13035 in chips)
legggggggggy: posts small blind 60
mitzi2k2: posts big blind 120
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dont77 [7c Ac]
Ryokan: folds
lyerly_: folds
LIDER: folds
simontempler: folds
Kel Dollars: folds
Bjorg009: folds
dont77: raises 240 to 360 - Button
legggggggggy: folds - SB
mitzi2k2: calls 240 - BB
Pot = 900
*** FLOP *** [Qd 5d Qs];
mitzi2k2: checks
dont77: bets 480 (A probe bet)
mitzi2k2: calls 480*
pot = 1860
*** TURN *** [Qd 5d Qs] [Ah]
mitzi2k2: bets 960**
dont77: calls 960
pot = 3780
*** RIVER *** [Qd 5d Qs Ah] [2d]
mitzi2k2: bets 2040***
dont77: calls 2040 attempting to win 5820

* Villain's call of my flop bet looks like it could be any pair, connected diamonds, any queen, or AK (2OCs) - although I am discounting AK (which probably would have reraised PF) and some of the higher pairs (which probably also would have reraised PF).

** When villain leads the turn - with an Ace on the board, I'm thinking that he could be probing with any pair (trying to knock me off of a middle pair) or he could be making a value/protective bet with any queen. Hands like AJ/AT/etc. are unlikely given his call ATF (with only 3 outs) and the fact that 2 Aces are already accounted for. At this point I'm thinking that 2 middle connected diamonds are probably less likely since he wouldn't have many outs with a hand like that.

*** The river brings in the flush, but I'm still beating KK/JJ/TT/99/88/77/66/44/33. Hands like Ax and XXd have been largely discounted. AQ/KQ/QQ/QJ/QTs/55/22 have me beat. I'm getting 2.9:1, so I call.

SHOW DOWN
<font color="white"> mitzi2k2: shows [Jd 9d] (a flush, Queen high)
dont77: mucks hand
mitzi2k2 collected 7740 from pot
</font>

Comments please on Hero's and/or Villain's play on any of the streets. I thought Villain's line was unusual - would you call it Standard, Genius, or Spewing? IOW, is this a line I should be taking more often myself?

mornelth · #2 10-30-2006, 05:04 PM

I take villain's line fairly often with most pairs I came to the flop with. I will not often bet out on the turn without a Q since A is likely to have helped my opponent, I'll bet this turn 100,000% of the time (approx) if I have some sort of a queen or if I'm FPSing with clear mountain air. I'm not sure how fancy I would get with an OOP FD in villain's place on this turn, though I do not HATE his semi. River is standard value/blocking bet IMO, a boat would raise him, a set of queens or (apparently) Aces-up will pay him off.

Hero's line : I do not like your flop bet / turn call line. You do it against me - and I think that there's close to 0% chance you actually have a Q. As a villain I will bet the turn and if you do not raise - I'll shove any river (other than a diamond, which I can value-bet).

This is IMO and I do not play at $500 level, so take it for what that's worth.

NoahSD · #3 10-30-2006, 05:06 PM

You need a special kind of villain to call that river

I take villain's line a lot with draws although I don't like it here much.

DonT77 · #4 10-30-2006, 05:14 PM

Thanks for the replies so far. Although Villain did get me to pay off his flush - there is one big problem with his turn bet: The board is paired, so even if he hits his FD his implied odds are not that good. As you see he bet 1000 ATT and collected only 1000+2000 for his made flush. I guess the question here is does villain get better hands to fold often enough ATT to make up for his shortfall in implied odds? Thoughts?

mornelth · #5 10-30-2006, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies so far. Although Villain did get me to pay off his flush - there is one big problem with his turn bet: The board is paired, so even if he hits his FD his implied odds are not that good. As you see he bet 1000 ATT and collected only 1000+2000 for his made flush. I guess the question here is does villain get better hands to fold often enough ATT to make up for his shortfall in implied odds? Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I know my opponent to be capable of folding IN GENERAL then this is the bluff line I will take. In a 20/180 you can play this line on a paired board profitably as a COMPLETE bluff, in higher buy-in events you probably want some outs to go with it so a semi is good. Would you have called his bet if the turn was anything OTHER than an Ace?... Would you have called his bet with a pair of Jacks in your hand?...

DonT77 · #6 10-31-2006, 10:54 AM

My experience is that (against a typical opponent) 40% of the time this is pocket pair, 40% of the time this is Qx, and 20% of the time this is something else. I think a call ATR has long-term profitability here, but I agree that this is very read dependent.

DonT77 · #7 10-31-2006, 11:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies so far. Although Villain did get me to pay off his flush - there is one big problem with his turn bet: The board is paired, so even if he hits his FD his implied odds are not that good. As you see he bet 1000 ATT and collected only 1000+2000 for his made flush. I guess the question here is does villain get better hands to fold often enough ATT to make up for his shortfall in implied odds? Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I know my opponent to be capable of folding IN GENERAL then this is the bluff line I will take. In a 20/180 you can play this line on a paired board profitably as a COMPLETE bluff, in higher buy-in events you probably want some outs to go with it so a semi is good. Would you have called his bet if the turn was anything OTHER than an Ace?... Would you have called his bet with a pair of Jacks in your hand?...

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the range that I had opponent on, JJ would probably have been a call too; but if hero had a hand like 77/88 it would have been very difficult (and incorrect) to call at that point.

One thing I like about Villain's lead on the turn is that it provides cover (by mixing it up) for the times when he does have Qx or a pocket pair. I'm still torn on whether I like Villain's play or not, but for the Shania it gives I think I like it.

uclabruinz · #8 10-31-2006, 11:17 AM

I like villain's play quite a bit, and I would play the hand similarly quite often.

Ansky · #9 10-31-2006, 11:31 AM

river is a really really easy fold. You are beating like nothing. Don't be that guy who says "BUT HE COULD BE BLUFFING I HAVE TOP PAIRRRRRRRRRRRRRR."

Foucault · #10 10-31-2006, 12:02 PM

Read on Villain? Generally I'm very worried when a card that should be scary for my opponent falls and he leads into me. I guess that's why it might make sense for Villain to probe this turn, but I dunno. I don't generally expect a turn fold if I'm BB making this bet. It is just too easy for you to call in position with almost anything that has some showdown value and see what he does on the river. For you to be ahead here, Villain would have to be floating you out of position, probing into you on a scary turn card, and then bluffing the river into an opponent who has showed strength on two streets. I think calling turn with the intention of folding river is best, and that folding turn is better than calling turn and river. But I've been running bad, so maybe I'm just seeing monsters. I'm about to look at what others have said....

Oh and as for you using this line, did you mean as a bluff or for value? For value I think it's good largely because a card that likely helped button came on the turn, but it's also a card that will cause him to check with almost anything, as he'll be WA/WB without a Q. So the only way to get turn and river bets paid off OOP is to lead this turn.