Urgent Help Please! What to do when missing the flop...

Poker Plan · #1 10-27-2006, 01:11 PM

I am a relative beginner at Limit HE- been playing online for about 10 months. Playing strictly at the nanos, within my BR.

I have GSIH and SSHE. My preflop play is quite good- still sme work to do, but it's not far off I think.

BUT....

I have real difficulty when I have a decent hand that misses the flop. If I'm OOP and I have OC's, then I tend to lead out - ususally getting called down and flashed a small PP or similar.

If I have position, and it's checked to me, then I usually bet- my thinking is that if I check then my opponent(s) will lead out on the turn and I won't know whether this is because they now know I have nothing.

Would a good strategy be:
OUT OF POSITION:-
I have a good hand like AK.
I raise it up PF
I miss the flop
I bet and if I get called, I fold UI on the turn

IN POSITION:-
I have a good hand like AK.
I raise it up PF
I miss the flop
It's checked to me, I bet and if I get called, I check the turn for a free card (INSTEAD OF FIRING ANOTHER ONE)

I just can't get my head around this aspect of the game. It's making me a break-even player. The bets that I do make when I hit, I am just spewing away when I miss.

I don't need specific examples and don't want to post specific hands. What I am after is an explanation on the thought process of how you approach these situations.

Please Help! Any good articles, links to relevant threads MOST appreciated.

I need to get this sorted soon- I'm fine with most other aspects of the game (not to say I have mastered them, but I UNDERSTAND the principles). I don;t really tilt and have loads of patience.

Ian

Matt Williams · #2 10-27-2006, 01:37 PM

I used to hate AK but now I love it. Personally, when I have AK the first thing I do when the flop comes is see how many people are in the pot. If there are 4 or 5 (common), I know I am losing w/ AK if the board comepletely misses me. If there are 2 or 3 players I may bet out but if 2 call, I won't put more money in the pot unless I improve on the turn. There is no shame in folding AK if there are 5 in the pot and the board is 4-5-7-8. But I see WAY too many people that call/bet AK to the river on a board like that and complaining they never win with it. Just think to yourself "Don't get carried away." when you get AK and you should be fine.

uDevil · #3 10-27-2006, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I need to get this sorted soon- I'm fine with most other aspects of the game (not to say I have mastered them, but I UNDERSTAND the principles). I don;t really tilt and have loads of patience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm.

You won't sort it out soon. You left some critical elements out of your strategy. Stuff like the the size of the pot, the character of the flop, whether or not you have any backdoor draws, the nature and number of opponents, and their actions so far.

Against one loose opponent who limped in late position when the flop is paired, you very likely have the best hand on the flop. You have to protect your hand, so bet. If he calls, it still doesn't mean much if he is very loose, so on the turn, you can bet again.

In the same situation against a weak-tight player who calls your flop bet, it may be best to check/fold the turn-- he has something.

Go back and reread the section of SSH on playing overcards.

Poker Plan · #4 10-27-2006, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I need to get this sorted soon- I'm fine with most other aspects of the game (not to say I have mastered them, but I UNDERSTAND the principles). I don;t really tilt and have loads of patience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm.

You won't sort it out soon. You left some critical elements out of your strategy. Stuff like the the size of the pot, the character of the flop, whether or not you have any backdoor draws, the nature and number of opponents, and their actions so far.

Against one loose opponent who limped in late position when the flop is paired, you very likely have the best hand on the flop. You have to protect your hand, so bet. If he calls, it still doesn't mean much if he is very loose, so on the turn, you can bet again.

In the same situation against a weak-tight player who calls your flop bet, it may be best to check/fold the turn-- he has something.

Go back and reread the section of SSH on playing overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many thanks for this. Since posting, I found some good threads on OC's, so will read those thoroughly too. I will def' read the SSHE section again. But from what I remember, all it really says is "play them like any other weak draw"- if that was the case, I'd just make an easy fold if I don;t have the correct odds, regardless of position. (of course I'd check OOP, rather than fold). But there's obviously a lot more to factor in, than just the plain maths- as you pointed out in your reply.

Thanks again.

Ian

OziBattler · #5 10-27-2006, 05:02 PM

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Please Help! Any good articles, links to relevant threads MOST appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

This should keep you busy for a while

there is a nice overcards section in there for starters...oh and a continuation bets section too.

stackenvy · #6 10-28-2006, 05:48 PM

I rather AK than AA or KK...I can fold it without a hard decsion when I know im beat,AA or KK you won't be so easy to fold

Rook · #7 10-28-2006, 06:02 PM

AK is a hand that UI plays better vs fewer players. If you did the "correct" thing and raised it PF, you should have narrowed the field down. If you get a bunch of hanger-ons.. then you have to play the texture of the flop. If there's a bunch of low cards, and a bunch of players (4-5), you've got to think someone paired up and will call down your AK. Get rid of it. I don't think I'd even bother leading that kind of flop on that kind of board.

If you narrowed the field down to 2-3, then you can more easily cbet a low flop. Chances are the ones that stayed with you played high cards, or perhaps medium/low PP's. Don't be so in love with your AK that you go to the end with it against someone that shows great willingness to call you down. In the end, 22 is a winner vs an UI AK (in fact, it's a favorite against AK preflop too).

AK is a tough hand to play post flop for beginners, and intermediates alike. It's definitely one of the top 2% of preflop hands, but it quickly loses value after the flop. Play it strongly against few players, but don't be upset if you have to throw it away when you meet resistance.

uDevil · #8 10-29-2006, 01:37 AM

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...(in fact, it's a favorite against AK preflop too).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not always:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=8817

pokenum -h 2h 2d - as ks
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2d 2h 849322 49.60 852207 49.77 10775 0.63 0.499
As Ks 852207 49.77 849322 49.60 10775 0.63 0.501

Rook · #9 10-30-2006, 12:03 AM

lol, Ok, I stand corrected.

Sarge85 · #10 10-30-2006, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please Help! Any good articles, links to relevant threads MOST appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

This should keep you busy for a while

there is a nice overcards section in there for starters...oh and a continuation bets section too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy Christ -

That is one valuable thread link.

Whoever did that did a helluva a job.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]