Do numbers exist?

[bunny]

I mean in the platonic sense - separate from the physical universe, eternal, timeless, unchanging, etc etc. Or are they purely constructs of language, relationships between physical things, something else?

I'd be interested in people's opinions - it seems the only thing I still find mysterious.

[hmkpoker]

Numbers (1,2,3,4) are just constructs of language. That which they represent, that is, logical operators (yes/no) are the cornerstone of thinking.

[bunny]

So why are they so "unreasonably effective" at describing the physical world? If they are the product of intelligent beings, why should they work so well at modelling reality? (Not in the simple 1 apple plus 1 apple = 2 apples kind of way, but in the more hardcore quantum physics kind of way).

[FortunaMaximus]

They're just a way to track and analyze rational flux.

1 is to 1 as 1 is to 1

2 is to 2 as 1 + 1 is to 2.

Of course, it gets a lot more complicated than that. But that's a way to describe rational growth.

0 is not nothing. It's the ultimate placeholder.

<shrugs> You know, I'm not sure either. 2 + 2 = 5 if 2 is 2.5 in an algebraic format.

Why do you ask?

Edit: Pretty sure it occurred '98ish, I can detect it, administer it, tell the difference, but I think it's a multiple-emergent.

[livin_a_lie]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you ask?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems the only thing I still find mysterious.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's almost done!

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
Do numbers exist? I mean in the platonic sense - separate from the physical universe, eternal, timeless, unchanging, etc etc. Or are they purely constructs of language, relationships between physical things?

[/ QUOTE ]You can't see, hear, or smell numbers in the physical world*. It is unlikely that you might physically bump into 8501 or "square root of -1" any time soon.

But numbers do exist. I mean in the platonic sense - separate from the physical universe; eternal, timeless, unchanging, etc. They are purely constructs of language, denoting relationships between physical things.

They will go away when we'll go away.

Mickey Brausch

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* The "visualization", and other physical manifestations, of numbers as experienced by mathematical geniuses --and idiots savant-- notwithstanding.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems the only thing I still find mysterious.

[/ QUOTE ]

amazing

[Magic_Man]

There will always be countable amounts of things in any universe. 2 of something is always twice as many as 1 of the same thing. In that sense, numbers exist independent of the physical univers.

~MagicMan

[Lestat]

Physical (and non-physical) objects exist. The math used to count them is entirely a man-made concept. Kind of like asking if letters, words, or language really exist in a different context than we understand them. (I think).

[FortunaMaximus]

I feel 'em, see them, walk on them.

A tree's just a structure of numbers. A single tree can be older than the Universe. Blueshift it if only in your imagination, and look up in the sky.

Goddamn.