400-800 Commerce hand - Stud hi

[Joe Tall]

5-handed 400/800, $100 ante, $100 bring, S,R,E game at Commerce. Great game as for any stud game goes, seriously. I have a solid image.

3rd street:
2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] brings it in for 100
2 seat with the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] calls
I watched this game for about 10 minutes before I sat in it and the 2 seat was aweful. He showed down a 356r starter in stud-hi where there was so much action that one of the other players moved the stud-plaque in front of him DURING THE HAND!

I'm next and complete with
(A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] calls behind me
7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] folds, bring in folds, 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] calls

4th street:
XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] bets
I think for a bit, look left at a clear fold and call with (A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] folds

5th street:
XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] bets
(A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], he'll continue to bet and I decide to raise 6th street and call.


6th street:
XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] bets
(A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I pray and call.

7th street:
XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] now checks?
(A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
He think he has put me on a flush and I make a thinly veiled value bet hoping it looks like a desparation bet.

comments on every street are welcome.

Thanks in advance,
Joe Tall

[Ray Zee]

should have took your raise on 5th as any club pair or even a straight card might stop his betting without trips.

[Wahoo73]

I don't like the call on 5th street. IMO, you should have raised right then. If you had, he would have likely either put you on a pair of As with a four-flush or As over 8s, which means if he really had trip 5s he would have likely re-raised. If he didn't have trip 5s, he would likely have either folded or just called. This is the information you needed to make playing the rest of the hand easier.

[betgo]

I don't play that high, but here are my thoughts.

I would raise 5th. Your board is not impressive and villain is likely to have 2 pair or trips, so he is likely to call or reraise, and you may not have a big enough advantage to slow play. Also, villain is described as a loose fish, so he may not be easy to chase out.

I would check behind on the river, as villain could be trapping. He called a raise on 3rd, so he should have a boat or quads. He may be loose enough to call on 3rd with junk, but it is still likely he had a pair.

[dsaxton]

Unless you believe he often folds to the raise, or folds 6th unimproved after calling a raise on 5th, I think you should raise 5th street. The worst case scenario is that he just calls, and then check-calls 6th, but occasionally he will 3-bet, allowing you to cap. If you just call and then raise 6th, too often he will just call even with trips, particularly if you hit a third club (he may even check-call or check-fold).

So in essence, the best outcome of slow-playing fifth is equivalent to the worst outcome of raising 5th.

The river looks like an easy value bet. I doubt he is checking any hand better than trip aces here, and I also doubt he folds his open trips.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
6th, but occasionally he will 3-bet, allowing you to cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This likely wasn't going to happen unless he does have trip 5s and he is full already, which is unlikely given that he hit a T on 5th.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
should have took your raise on 5th as any club pair or even a straight card might stop his betting without trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been thinking and thinking about it. May hvae been the moment but I was sure a raise on 5th would have turned my hand face up. I will have to think about this further. It's always great to hear from you Ray, thanks for the response.

[Bill King]

joe if you raise 5th he's puting you on a pair of aces at worst. If you started with two high clubs, and likely the Ac (which we know you have) then i think the metagame aspect of your raise will actually decrease your value of your hand. Clearly he can beat a pair of aces, but he cant beat a set of aces either. I do however think that your waiting to raise on 6th could have killed your action if a club danced off on your board.

It is likely that he has a boat already, but why would he stop betting here unless he believed you started out rolled?

I think you're spot on here by saying your raise on 5th gives your hand away huge... and i like the way you played this hand.

river is definitly a good value bet, and he's never raising you here without quads.. and you're never folding to a raise here, you're likely to 3-bet before you fold.

edit: a raise on 6th also creates a pot equity situation in villain's case to where he's more likely to pay off a river value bet if he (and he will) pay off your raise on 6th. unless he's completely braindead and puts you on a possible fd/pair and will look you up no matter what.

also, you didnt give any reads as to his river reactions.. that might help your decision on what to do just incase he gets frisky and raises the river... but i doubt that would happen.

[Jeffage]

Wow, big time man, congrats. Anyway...

Were fives totally live? Diamonds live? Potential straight cards he could have limped with live? This could give you a clue if he limped with a pair of 5's or not.

Did he bet the full $800 or $400 on 4th street? I'm not really liking your spot on 4th when an average player bets the max into two people - if your read of him is that (based on observed dead cards and his style of play) that he is likely to have either A) one pair only or two small pair then, ok. But I'm not in love with it, I'd have to be there, depends.

I DEFINITELY raise 5th street. No question. If he's as bad as you say, he's not getting away from two pair so why risk freezing him on 6th? He might be oblivious enough to allow you to get 4 large bets on 5th if he does have trips. Is he weak passive always or laggy bad?

The river is a bit thin, but I like it. When he checks, it may be bc he only has trips or it may be bc he has a small boat and for some reason gets scared that u "must" have gone into the river with big trips and may have filled. But either way, you won't be raised if he does have a boat and will be called by three fives. If he's not sophisticated, this is unlikely a checkraise trap with quads here.

Jeff

[Bill King]

yeah jeff i was debating on the line myself.. i am assuming (by my reply) that villain is somewhat of a sophisticated player.. i'm not familiar with playing this huge.. so i'm not sure.. Joe could help us by providing more info on villain here.