Making playing expense - My recent B&M experience

[Minnie Man]

I am a newb, but think I have a fairly educated game compared to most of the other players at my local B&M. I don't think I am too tight. Definitely not squeaky tight ABC, but I usually only play a hand when I know I have the best of it.

I just came back from one of the worst losing nights at my local B&M. I haven't been playing long, and I only play one time a week at the B&M's $1-$2 NL game. My poker bankroll has never been negative, but never higher than $1200. Week after week, I see one or two wild and crazy players just run over the table. Catching lucky cards, sucking out, etc. I have been just chalking it up to their good luck, but it seems like they are half running over the table, and half playing great poker. They seem fearless and everyone else seems fearful of them. These wild players don't usually call down with a crappy kicker, take longshot draws, etc. So I know they have some decent poker knowlege. For the most part.

What I have been noticing is they make each hand very expensive. Therefore, the pot builds, and the payoff is bigger. The table becomes afraid of them. They raise and reraise and take many pots down uncontested. Most of the table does not like playing against them. I see them go broke, a few times, but many times I see them leave with major wins. Like $1000 wins at a $1-2 $100 max buy in. I do see TAGs have winning nights at the tables, but not those major wins.

I read many 2p2 posts and read many books. I play my TAG and sometimes slightly LAG game. I have only on rare occasions had big winning nights. I don't usually lose much, but a good night for me is being up 1, maybe 2 buy-ins. I have had some disasterous nights playing against these LAGS.

What I like about these players is how they make everyone feel unsure about their hands. They are not afraid to call raises with anything. I want to be a smart player, but I definitely want to learn to make people afraid to play against me. How can I do that? When I do get a decent size stack at the table, I do raise from LP with most anything and I am not as afraid to gamble. Should I try that with a shorter stack too?

This isn't a rant, but I am really getting tired of slowly building my BR with TAG play to only have it destroyed by a LAG. I want to learn from these LAGs so I can be feared too.

Any thoughts?

[usaftrevor]

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I see them go broke, a few times, but many times I see them leave with major wins. Like $1000 wins at a $1-2 $100 max buy in. I do see TAGs have winning nights at the tables, but not those major wins.
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It takes a strong stomach, a healthy bankroll, and some very decent hand-reading ability to play this way. You've got to hate money to a certain extent.

You mentioned that you usu end up ahead for a buy-in or two on average. These players (self included) do about the same "on average" but it just looks more impressive to see them cash out so much at one time.

UberLAGs don't nec win more, they just win more at one sitting. If you never lose your stack with this playing style, then you truly are a very lucky SOB.

Most of the "luck" you see is just the fact that they do most of the raising, and in very few cases will they just call a bet going to showdown. You don't see all the "unlucky" times they missed and tossed the cards in the muck... but those "lucky" ones they got paid off due their style.

To play in such a manner comfortably... at $1/$2 NL... you've pretty much got to be willing to take fifteen crisp clean $100 bills, fan them out, grab a cigarette lighter. If you're completely happy to light that money on fire, you're ready to start lagging it up at $1/$2 NL. If not, keep playing the smart, low variance, most-likely to profit fashion that you're accustomed to.

** I am by no means suggesting that $1500 is a sufficient bankroll, just saying that you want to have that much available to get in the groove and try it out **

[vhawk01]

Yeah, a 1200 dollar roll for 1/2 probably isnt enough. Its close, but if you are playing in a wild, B&M game, its not enough. And you said your BR has never been higher than that.

[Minnie Man]

Unfortunately, that is the smallest game in any B&M around. I play online, but I also like to play in the B&M. I will keep plugging away!

[F0rtysxity]

hi minnie,

before you step up and start playing power poker (see Doyle Brunsen's Super Systems) you need a bankroll that can withstand the increased variance and allow you to push without fear. your bankroll isn't there yet. no problem, you need to learn how to play 'standard' or tag poker first anyway. sounds like the situation you are in is good for that, fold a lot preflop and get your hand in with the best of it and slowly build your bankroll up playing tight poker. once you hit $5000 and have read Super Systems then you can start loosening up your play. a lot of the aggressive play comes from playing well postflop and you can only do that with experience. gl

[vhawk01]

Thats really good advice. Minnie, do that.

[Minnie Man]

I usually play pretty TAG at the B&M and I will still heed the great advice here because I know it will work. I know I will play better by loosening up when I have a bankroll as I have when I have a big stack, but I will stay TAG until the BR is bigger.

Last night was frustrating to PF raise to $15 with pocket jacks and have them craked with a 9-8-4 flop by a this LAG who called my PF raise with 8-4s. Another $200 hand he won was when he called my PF raise and kept calling my bets on every street with his pocket 5's on a 8-10-2 flop 2 turn and he catches a 5 on the river for a boat. WTF?

Oops...that last paragraph should probably be in the Whining forum.

Thanks vhawk01, F0rtysxity, usaftrevor, and all the other 2p2-ers!

[Teetster]

The beauty of the LAG strategy is implied odds. I play TAG to start a session, always, but pretty LAG once I get a feel for the people I play against.

In a low buy in game like 1/2 if the stacks are reasonably deep, calling a small (<$15) PFR in good position with a sub-par holding is fine if there are 4-5 players. The whole idea is to hit big, cheaply, in a way that you can get paid off big.

Its like Christmas time when you play a hand like suited connectors and flop 2 pair against AA/KK whatever. At this low level almost everyone over plays them, and you get paid off in a huge way.

For example, last night I limped 35 spades one off the button. (There were 4 or 5 limpers already and it was a loose game.) Button raised to $20 every one calls. Board comes 4610 1 spade. Called 50 on the flop (OESD). Called 75 on the turn, which was the A spades. (FD+OESD) River 7 spades. I make my hand re-raise all in and get paid off. Huge pot almost $900.

I ended up felting two dudes one made a set of 10's and the other had 2 pair.

35 suited is a horrible hand, but I know if I hit, I will get paid off in a big way. So I play it. Yes, I will lose that $20 a lot, but when I hit, I will take out whole stacks. That's why LAG works.

As a TAG player you have to sense it in the players styles and recognize it - AND make LAGs pay dearly to draw against you. PFR $40 instead of $15. Whatever, just make it so expensive that if they call and miss, they won't keep doing it.

Anyways, I am not nearly as good as 90% of the people here, but that's my 2 cents...

[Mike]

"It takes a strong stomach, a healthy bankroll, and some very decent hand-reading ability to play this way. You've got to hate money to a certain extent."

Wow!

I would add to this learn to play without a hand like the people you have noticed. Watch the cards they play and try to understand when and why they play them. It is a very holistic process and may be hard understand.

So many people think they are good because they play perfect poker per what books they have read. They are good players, but not of the caliber of the players you are seeing.

Once you know which cards make good hands that most players would throw away, then you will be one of the players you have been observing and you will be feared too.

[iggymcfly]

I'd say "hating" money is the wrong adjective here. It's more like being indifferent to its effects. If someone sucks out on me for a buy-in when I'm playing LAG live, I just kind of smile and laugh and then reach back into my wallet. I might get slightly disappointed, but I never get angry. If you're really emotionally involved in each hand, it's hard to play effective poker.