Perfect example from SSHE that I botched.

Bruce D · #1 10-22-2006, 07:17 AM

Here are the villians.

UTG: 15/9/2 with an AF of 1.5 on river. Seems pretty tight overall and haven't seen them get out of line at all. All raises that ended in showdown showed normal raising standards. I don't think she has seen me get out of line. She certainly has been there long enough to get a good read on UTG1 since it didn't take long for him to show his colors after she came to the table.

UTG 1: 77/13/1.37 with an AF over 2.3 on the river. Uber loose. Cold calls too much. Is capable of bluffing, and also donk betting with small pieces of the board. I have been going head to head with this guy all night, and have not been bluffing against him at all. He has layed down his cards from time to time with a river raise.

Me: I have been behaving my self lately and not getting out of line. I think my table image is TAG. I have made lay downs to aggression at times. I don't know that UTG is aware of this or not. UTG1 has spent a good 400 hands at the table with me. UTG is relatively new to the table but must know about UTGs style.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Bruce D is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Bruce D calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

I call here in hopes that it will encourage others to fall in behind me (the blinds). I very likely have UTG1 crushed, and am at a coinflip with UTG I suspect.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.5SB, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Bruce D 3-bets

I read it as this so far. UTG is cbeting the flop. UTG1 sees a paired board and wants to put some pressure on the preflop raiser. However, I think he is fos. I have seen him do this before. My 3 bet is to get HU with UTG1.

, BB folds, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, Bruce D calls.

I have a feeling I am in trouble. I have no idea how to take this line now. I pray for my 9 to come as I am most certainly in trouble.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10.25BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Bruce D bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

UTGs check is one of fear. She must think one of us just hit our flush. I will represent the flush now. My raising on the button with suited connectors, A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would be consistent with plays that I had done before. It could also represent the one or both 8s, but I would not have likely cold called with X 8. Does either player know that? I am not sure. They both call, the pot is quite large.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.25BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Bruce D calls, UTG calls.

This was horrible. An absolute travesty. Can you tell me why? The pot is big. I am sure I have UTG beat still based on my reads. Even if I had an 8% chance of being ahead (which I think I do with these two opponents) I don't think folding is an option.

Results:
Final pot: 16.25BB

knockonwood · #2 10-22-2006, 07:53 AM

PF 3bet. Yours 9's are going to hold up a lot better with fewer players in.

Tight UTG leading this flop is a little scary. UTG1 is probably raising because the board is paired. At best UTG is on a diamond draw.

I bet the turn. A c/r from UTG is unlikey after having capped the flop. UTG I wouldn't be too concerned about.

River I play the same, its too big to fold.

Jago · #3 10-22-2006, 07:58 AM

I would 3-bet PF
given your reads 3-betting the flop is fine.
on the turn i would probably check behind and call 1 on the river (due to pot size)

zaephyr · #4 10-22-2006, 08:12 AM

UTG is going to bet anything on this flop, cuz hes preflopraiser, UTG1 would bet any pocketpair higher then 3 any 2 overcards maybe even backdor flush/streight draws. So i think your flop play was good.

Turn i think i would bet here too, and i would fold to check/raise.

River i dont like this play (even tho i would probably play the same :P), given your read UTG1 is very tricky/aggro on the river, even tho he might paired here or even completed hes backdoor streight I think raise here is the right play. Why?
Given our read, with what would UTG raise preflop and cap this flop and then suddenly check on turn. I dont think he would cap with sth like AK, AQ on this flop (except maybe suited diamonds), if he would cap with JJ+, he would bet turn too, so i would put him on TT, so with flop raise he would most likely fold a better hand. So with UTG out u have much higher chance to win this pot.

Aaron W. · #5 10-22-2006, 10:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG: 15/9/2 with an AF of 1.5 on river. Seems pretty tight overall and haven't seen them get out of line at all. All raises that ended in showdown showed normal raising standards. I don't think she has seen me get out of line. She certainly has been there long enough to get a good read on UTG1 since it didn't take long for him to show his colors after she came to the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold preflop.

YesMehFriend · #6 10-22-2006, 10:32 AM

I agree with the pf call. A raise from a tight 15/9 player is something you have to respect. Give him a range like 99+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo and let UTG+1 call 30% of his hands and your equity is like ~33%. I call and hope for the set or a good flop.

You get your good flop and 3betting is fine. But I'd just check the turn after UTG caps. If he raised the flop with a fd why doesn't he bet the turn? His play looks like overpair to me and I check the turn since I guess he'll always go to showdown with his hand unless a fourth flush card hits.

JerBear77 · #7 10-22-2006, 10:39 AM

*grunch*

raise/fold preflop, call is bad here with one cold caller. If we had 3 people already committed then we can call.

Flop 3 bet is ok, once its capped then im done with the hand. your 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is not worth anything for the flush if the 4th [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits as two live ones will have a flush higher than yours.

TWIWP, even though it was checked to me, im not betting because i certainly don't want to walk into a C/R here. Check behind.

River sucks here but i don't see anything we can beat with the Q, J, flush, or pockt pairs greater than 9. I would call but not overcall.

Aaron W. · #8 10-22-2006, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the pf call. A raise from a tight 15/9 player is something you have to respect. Give him a range like 99+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo and let UTG+1 call 30% of his hands and your equity is like ~33%. I call and hope for the set or a good flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Using preflop equity to justify a call, then saying "call and hope for the set or a good flop" is terrible reasoning.

DrModern · #9 10-22-2006, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the pf call. A raise from a tight 15/9 player is something you have to respect. Give him a range like 99+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo and let UTG+1 call 30% of his hands and your equity is like ~33%. I call and hope for the set or a good flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Using preflop equity to justify a call, then saying "call and hope for the set or a good flop" is terrible reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaron,

You're definitely right about this, but I don't agree that we should be folding preflop. There's enough money in the pot to justify calling on the basis of non-high-card flops and flops that make us a set alone. Give me another cold-caller and I'd call with 44.

To those who 3-bet preflop,

What's your reasoning?

Sushiglutton · #10 10-22-2006, 01:47 PM

Pf I think we should re-raise. UTG+1 probably puts some dead money in the pot, so that compensates for the time UTG has us crushed (I would fold HU against UTG). But we want to eliminate players behind us.

On the flop I think ur 3-bet is a good play, but after UTG caps I'm done with the hand. I call the flop of course. On the turn u can't be good, so just check behind. UTG checks his OP because he is afraid of the flush. And then fold river.