KK vs AA6 flop

SeaEagle · #1 10-19-2006, 08:17 PM

This is a hypothetical hand inspired by this thread: Inspiration. I made a new thread because it wasn't fair to hijack OPs thread and I wanted to change a couple details to make the hand cleaner.

Random Poker Room
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
10 players

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
4 folds, Hero Raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7SB, 3 players)

Button is a solid player but a tad loose PF (25/10/2.2) He's a bit tricky both PF and post flop. He knows hero will raise with a decent range of hands so button plays most pairs, suited broadways, suited Ax, and a few other hands. He'll 3-bet about 1/2 the time that he plays and will occasionally CC with strong starting hands for variety.

sb is a solid tag (18/10/2.3) and has a similar starting hand range to villian because he's getting at least 3-1 to call. He'll only 3-bet w/ his very strongest hands.

What's my plan?

somapopper · #2 10-19-2006, 09:18 PM

Given your description, keep betting till you get raised then call down from there. If we know for sure the button is tricky and often playing pps and broadway cards without an ace here, I think the hand is pretty easy.

SeaEagle · #3 10-19-2006, 09:24 PM

Edit to OP: sb checks the flop.

Xhad · #4 10-19-2006, 09:56 PM

Unless I have some kind of previous history I bet the flop just because when you check the flop you pretty much set your range as QQ, KK, Ax. If it goes bet/call/checkraise I fold; probably a fold even if button folds before the checkraise. I will frequently be checking the turn if I bet and get called, definitely checking if both opponents call.

James. · #5 10-19-2006, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given your description, keep betting till you get raised then call down from there.

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this is inconsistent. given the description these guys will fold worse hands most of the time, put pressure on us a few other times, and take us to valuetown the rest of the time. your line loses the most when behind.

[ QUOTE ]
If we know for sure the button is tricky and often playing pps and broadway cards without an ace here, I think the hand is pretty easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

taking your line we will either win alot of small pots when everyone folds the flop because we have them crushed, or lose larger pots calling down because based on the action we are bigger underdogs against a tight, reasonable player's range. you need to explore other options, i think.

James. · #6 10-19-2006, 10:50 PM

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because when you check the flop you pretty much set your range as QQ, KK, Ax.

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what? why is it so narrow? why not 77-JJ as well? KQ, KJs, QJs, and JTs could be included, also. you could add a couple more, or take a couple off but regardless it is not QQ+, Ax.

somapopper · #7 10-19-2006, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given your description, keep betting till you get raised then call down from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is inconsistent. given the description these guys will fold worse hands most of the time, put pressure on us a few other times, and take us to valuetown the rest of the time. your line loses the most when behind.

[ QUOTE ]
If we know for sure the button is tricky and often playing pps and broadway cards without an ace here, I think the hand is pretty easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

taking your line we will either win alot of small pots when everyone folds the flop because we have them crushed, or lose larger pots calling down because based on the action we are bigger underdogs against a tight, reasonable player's range. you need to explore other options, i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. My line was "designed" to get to a showdown against a tricky opponent whose range we beat. Thinking too much about the Button and not enough about the SB may very well be a mistake.

I take it from your comments that a turn raise means we're beat, even if it comes from the button. Could you explain your thinking there, because that didn't seem to be the case to me.

edit: should I feel honored that you used your 3,000th post to school me?

Xhad · #8 10-19-2006, 10:58 PM

Well, I never check 77-JJ there. I probably don't check KQ hands as much as I should, if I get better about doing that then I could see also checking KK there. I also can't remember the last time a TAG did this and it wasn't one of those hands.

James. · #9 10-20-2006, 07:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I never check 77-JJ there. I probably don't check KQ hands as much as I should, if I get better about doing that then I could see also checking KK there. I also can't remember the last time a TAG did this and it wasn't one of those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

part of this reasoning is what checking the flop is trying to exploit. a "TAG" may be checking that flop for several reasons with those hands. a weaker player might be checkfolding. others may be check/calling to reevaluate on the turn or checking with the intentions of raising. i don't think it is accurate to say a "TAG" never checks anything but an ace/QQ/KK in that spot. also, we need to keep in mind the overall scope of things. that is, if we balance our flop checks appropriately it is not "turning our cards face up" as you would suggest it does. it actually widens our range. if our range is perceieved to consist of a good portion of hands that it does not, this can induce multiple mistakes from our opponents based on their misconception of us.

Harv72b · #10 10-20-2006, 09:04 AM

The biggest problem that I can see with checking the flop is that it sets us up to be bluffed out of the pot pretty often on the turn. That's especially true here, where we are sandwiched between two opponents....what are we doing if the flop checks through and SB leads out a blank turn? If Button bets the flop and SB calls? If it checks through and checks to us again on the turn?

What I'm trying to say is, this hand with this flop is pretty much guaranteed to win us a small pot, if we're good. Checking the flop only seems to put us in a series of more difficult decisions on future streets. And that's not even considering the possibility that SB will call "BS" on a Button flop bet and check/raise with a hand that we beat, when we are also beating whatever Button holds.

If I bet & they both just fold, okay, fine--move on to the next hand. If I bet & they both call, then I have to decide whether to bet/fold the turn or check with the intention of calling one bet there. I'm not saying that checking here is not a good option, just that I don't think it's a good option here, with one tricky and one good opponent surrounding us.