Villain doesn't believe in raising PF: TPTK on scary board

[Haiku]

Main villain is loose and very passive PF, I've seen him limp/call AQ preflop and then donkbet all streets of an A-high flop. I flat-called the flop knowing I could easily ditch the hand on a scary turn and because button is a huge donk who's not going anywhere with any sort of hand on the flop, but will fold on the turn.

When UTG leads weakly on the turn I raise planning to fold to a shove from either villain.

Anyone raise the flop? Remember the Tribeca converter is weird so on the turn I made it $35 to go, not $25.

Holdem No Limit - $1 BB

MP ($104.25) [Hero]
CO ($67.90)
Button ($93.61)
SB ($110.50)
BB ($230.50)
UTG ($96.75)

Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Preflop: (6 players, $1.5)
UTG calls $1, Hero calls $1 and raises $4, CO folds, Button calls $5, 2 folds, UTG calls $4

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, $16.5)
UTG bets $10, Hero calls $10, Button calls $10

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, $46.5)
UTG bets $10, Hero calls $10 and raises $25, Button folds, UTG calls $25

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, $116.5)
UTG bets $16, Hero calls $16

[orange]

I like your reasoning. Flop is fine I think...a raise will get calls from AQ/diamonds I think, though I don't mind calling the flop. The turn small isolation/value/whatever raise is okay IMO. His small bets I think mean a draw. I would fold that river if he bet larger, but given his bet size, I pay off everytime.

[kitaristi0]

Probably fold the flop first time around.

[ReptileHouse]

Wow. What an absolutely crappy board for AK. That's just.... bad.

I hate saying it, but I don't think folding the flop is very far from wrong.

Since you're flat calling the flop, you're apparently not worried about a flush draw, in which case I prefer just flat calling again on the turn. Call the weak river bet. I think you're crushed, but call.

[monkeymaps]

I dont really get the turn raise why not do that on the flop if you want to raise, I dont mind raising just dont know why on the turn is it for value? isolation?

As played I would just call down
I would also give serious consideration to just folding the flop there .

[linuxrocks]

Given your read, I think you played it well. I would play it quite differently. Raising the fop is my usual play. It's not about keeping people on this kind of board, it's about defining his hand, because he is passive and you will have tough decisions later. Raising also might get you to cheaper showdown.

[Haiku]

I don't raise the flop because too many hands can shove on me and make me fold and because the third guy is a huge donkey who will cold call a raise with J6o in that spot on the flop, but will fold it to heat on the turn. Raising I think makes a huge pot on the flop where I'm basically beating exactly AQ or some random suited ace.

On the turn I'm raising both to get the button out of there, and mostly because with that weak turn lead I'm concerned about a flush draw from UTG and hoping for a free showdown.

[linuxrocks]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise the flop because too many hands can shove on me and make me fold and because the third guy is a huge donkey who will cold call a raise with J6o in that spot on the flop, but will fold it to heat on the turn. Raising I think makes a huge pot on the flop where I'm basically beating exactly AQ or some random suited ace.

On the turn I'm raising both to get the button out of there, and mostly because with that weak turn lead I'm concerned about a flush draw from UTG and hoping for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say the first guy is passive, second guy is a calling station. I don't understand why they would push with any thing that you beat.

[monkeymaps]

I dont mind the raise if you think that your going to get paid off buy these guys or not giving cheep draws, I just think you may be way behind from the flop on. (c/c) I think a bigger raise on the turn may be good if your pretty confident he is on a flush draw.

Tough call pressence of two bad players makes the hand weird. I used to make a raise like that in limit more often than in NL but a may have to re think and make that play once and a while.

[Haiku]

The first guy is passive PF (never raises), but not necessarily postflop. He's definitely capable of shoving QdJd there.