JJ and QQ blindfolded and out of position vs. tag 3 bet...

[crablegs33]

In the past week i feel like i've misplayed several QQ and JJ on flops of all undercards against taggy players. I've given away too many chips when i'm behind, and missed value/given free cards when i'm ahead...

assume villain is 14/9/2.5 over enough hands to make the stats credible, and is observant enough to put me in the 20/10/aggro range i play...

You wake up with QQ or JJ in ep, raise, all fold to taggy villain on the button who 3-bets and you cap...

i've found being out of position preflop has really limited the amount of information i can gather about villain's hand range. If he were the initial raiser, the decision to cap or not would be up to him, giving me a general feel for his range and where i'm at... with him 3 betting on the button, his range is widened as it could be an attempt at isolation with 88 or 99 or a number of other hands...

Flop comes 7-6-2 rainbow...

my play on the flop in situations like these typically consists of me betting with full intention of making it 3 if i'm raised, and calling a cap, genrally assuming i'm behind at that point.

turn comes another blank...
if villain capped the flop, i enter check-call mode

if villain only called my 3 bet preflop i lead the turn, and call if raised

river another blank falls...
i generally follow the same principle i did on the turn, letting villain's aggression from the previous round determine my action on the next... check-calling when he has showed aggression, and bet/calling when he hasn't.


there were several hands that really made me think i needed to re-evaluate my strategy in these situations. Sometimes i've seen the tag cap the flop as a seond attempt at getting a free river card with AK, and it has worked... as i've checked the turn to him... i've also seen the flop get capped and then have him check behind me with 10's or 9's, again missing value when i'm ahead.

is my general strategy in these situations correct?
or should i be leading this turn every time after the blank falls?
how much should i factor in the difference between the strength of JJ and QQ in these situations? enough to make take completely different lines?

i guess i'm just seeing if there is anything i'm overlooking here... and if there were any suggestions that could help me extract full value when i'm ahead with minimal loss when i'm behind...

[Bob T.]

Being out of position sucks. Your plan is fine, but you just won't ever be able to get it right all of the time if your opponents play aggressively preflop and on the flop.

[JacksonTens]

Your lines seem fine. Mix it up etc. But being oop is just that, it sucks. Very hard to get full value there. Just another thought. Maybe don't cap PF all the time with the monster. If you both have OP's or big cards, you can easily get more value from deception.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[sheera]

I don't totally hate situations like this because there's a solid chance we're good a large enough percentage of the time.

NOt sure what limit that this is exactly but HPFAP says if you get three bet from the type of opponent you described in your position you should check call even if the flop looks favorable. I think check-folding if an A or K falls might be a little extreme on the flop depending on your opponent.

I guess this basically means that giving free cards is not as bad in this situation since you may be behind in the hand already.

Ok, I am done quoting lines from the book now.