Starting hand quiz

[Aisthesis]

The question I'm trying to get at is what hands do sufficiently well that you would want to play them for, say, 1/4 of stack or more.

To arrive at the conclusion, here's what I'd like to hypothesize: You know that your opponent, who's driving the betting, has AAKKds, but you don't know which suits. You also know that it's going to be heads-up here. What hands should you play in this kind of situation?

I'll further just stipulate that the hands you play here have to be at worst 2:1 underdogs to AAKKds.

I've been running a bunch of different ones through the odds calculator (certainly don't have ALL, but the ones I have do present a pretty good picture, I think). But I'll just leave it at that for now.

Ideas?

[jipster]

any four to a straight, one or two gaps....

really your looking for a rainbow that gives you two pair with a str drw or one pair with str drws... even if you hit one pair with any four cards under K; you may have to continue with the hand because you are about 40% with 12 outs and 2 chances.... a lot of players play ANY 4 cards against this sort of holding... if you can peg your man to aces, your play is made all the much easier....


I'm always raising preflop with good drwing hands, often i'll get repotted so am constantly putting 1/4 of my stack in on these sorts of hands...

Also, A flushing ace with any 3 str cards (lower than a jack in this case i would guess) is always good, one pair or str drws with flsh drws is always a good hand!

What might prove to eb a more useful question is what hands NOT to play against AAKKds..... my stab is any paired hand chuck.... although a 2pair in the hand figures to hit trips 25% of the t9ime (by the river) so is not a bad call to see a flop, tho you often will have to give the hand up there.... the implied odds are great though... when you miss you fold, when you hit you double through!

good luck

[BriMc]

I also like Medium pairs with 3 straght cards in this spot.

1010JQ
10JJQ
10JQQ

For example

[Aisthesis]

Any AA hand also works, although it may be difficult to play if you flat call. In any case, AA72r is only 1.7:1 vs. AAKKds and 1.6:1 vs. AAJTds.

If you call rather than pushing in this spot (I'm really not sure what to do on a junky AA--probably would've just limped with it anyway), then you are presumably good to go HU on rainbow boards or those where flushes or flush draws are to one of your aces. As long as your opponent hasn't spiked a set and doesn't have the flush draw, you presumably become favorite on those boards where you hit your 7 or your 2.

As to wraps, one thing I found very interesting here (again, under my rather strong assumption that we're dealing with AAKKds, not just any AA) was that 89TJr is actually a 2.2:1 underdog. If it's "ss," as I call it (exactly 2 to a suit and the other 2 cards different suits), it becomes 1.8:1 if the flush draw isn't the same as AAKK's bigger flush draw. While I didn't run it through the calculator, I'm guessing one is probably a little worse than 2:1 if the wrap is ss with the flush having the same suit as AAKK.

It's also worth noting here that smaller wraps do MUCH better than 89TJ: 5678ds is only a 1.6:1 underdog even if BOTH of the suits are the same as the AAKK suits, and it's only a 1.4:1 underdog if both suits are different.

Anyhow, I think it's clear that being in the low-mid-range is better against AAKKds anyway, and not being rainbow is a big advantage. Just as note: Q952ds with suits different from AAKKds is only 2:1, compared to the 2.2:1 for 89TJr.

I haven't yet done any of the "holey" wraps, but I'm quite sure that hands like 5689 aren't going to differ much from 5678. If there are multiple or larger holes, I'd guess that they'd almost have to be ds to justify a call.

For two pair hands: It's also much better here if the two pair are close together. QQ22ds is only right at 2:1 even if the suits are different from the AAKK suits.

9988 does a lot better. It's 1.6:1 if both suits are different from the AAKK suits. 1.9:1 with one suit the same, and goes up to 2.3:1 if both suits are the same.

Pair wraps: Actually, QQJT (specifically against AAKKds--although some of this will apply to other strong AA hands) is not so great. Again, lower seems to be better here. Anyhow, QQJTds does all right if both suits are different from the AAKK suits. Then it's 1.8:1 underdog.

But if it's ds and even one suit is the same as one of the AAKK suits, then it goes up to 2.1:1, and if both suits are the same, it goes all the way up to 2.5:1. The reason is obviously that so many outs are taken away or potentially counterfeited on the high end of the straight.

But 6678ds does pretty well: 1.6:1 if both suits are different from the AAKK suits and only 2.0:1 if both suits are the same (presumably somewhere in between if one suit is the same and the other different, although I didn't run that through the odds calculator).

So, anyhow, on this particular scenario, lower seems to be better, and ds seems to be moderately important on the pair wraps. 6678ss is 1.9:1 if the flush is different from the AAKK flushes, and, although I didn't run it through the calculator, it should be fairly significantly worse than 2:1 if the suit is the same as one of the AAKK suits.

There's still one more type of hand that I've found that does really well (defined as being less than a 2:1 underdog PF) even against AAKKds. Anyone have it--or others that I may have missed?? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I also like Medium pairs with 3 straght cards in this spot.

1010JQ
10JJQ
10JQQ

For example

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think those would be the worst hands to play against AAKK.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
What might prove to eb a more useful question is what hands NOT to play against AAKKds

[/ QUOTE ]


Besides that consideration, the primary one, especially for a 1/4 of your stack pre, is knowing that the opponent with the AA hand will go to the felt no matter what flop comes, or conversely if you are OOP, that he can fold and be bluffed/semi-bluffed out if you bet out on the flop.

[guilt_trip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What might prove to eb a more useful question is what hands NOT to play against AAKKds

[/ QUOTE ]


Besides that consideration, the primary one, especially for a 1/4 of your stack pre, is knowing that the opponent with the AA hand will go to the felt no matter what flop comes, or conversely if you are OOP, that he can fold and be bluffed/semi-bluffed out if you bet out on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Your implied odds on the flop are a massive consideration of whether you'll be able to play for 1/4 of your stack against an opponent.

Any way I would say that if you can pin your opponent on AAKKds and your implied odds are good then your starting hand range is pretty big. So your range is hands of the type:

A765
JT98
QQJT
7543
7766
AAxx

Either ds or ss, if your implied odds are good then you can play these as at worst you are a 2-1 dog. Even if they arent then many are still playable.

Stuff to avoid is QQxx, KKxx and JJxx. If these are bare then you're throwing away your money.

[Aisthesis]

Agreed. Actually an interesting topic for a separate thread, but I'll take a stab at that as a start.

First, OOP. If he can be bluffed easily (including the fact that you don't look like a frivolous pot-buyer in general), then I think all ds (possibly just any) live cards not including an A increase substantially in value. All hands including pairs decrease in value. Basic idea: Bet any pair into him. You're not in bad shape as a rule even when you're behind.

If he's playing for stack every time, then I think the 2 pair hands increase a lot in value and the wraps need to be a lot more solid.

Actually, the same probably holds if you're in position. The real difference there in my experience is that a surprizing number of players provide tells with the size (or existence) of their CB. Some players will still check what they consider a miss even HU (some with the intention of calling with their AA nonetheless), but most will make some kind of CB into almost all flops.

However, a LOT of players don't make a consistent CB here. Some go half-pottish when they like the flop and full pot when they don't. Others do exactly the opposite.

If they do that, one thing I think it can tell you if you have a non-nut flush draw is whether it's likely to be any good: Say a player who bets full pot on a so-so or bad flop half-pots a flop with no A (kind of semi-coordinated rags with two to a suit). Then whatever other draws you may have, I think you can pretty well assume that they have the nut flush draw and make your decision on the basis of that info.