KTs - Blind Defense

SixForty · #1 10-10-2006, 12:27 AM

Okay, after taking almost a month off from my regular game (I went on vacation for a little while, and after that spent some time focusing a bit on my tournament play and learning no-limit) I'm now back at the grind. Time to post a couple of hands.

Without me saying anything about my own thoughts on this hand, I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks

Live 10/20 game - 10 handed, mostly loose/aggressive. Most pots are 5-7 people to the flop for a single bet, or 3-5 for multiple bets. Most pots go to showdown 2-3 handed, and there is almost always a raise by someone on the flop, and usually a riase somewhere on the big streets.

Reads:
MP2 - relatively new to the table, I've never played against him before (that I remember). He'd been at the table for something like 2-3 orbits, maybe 4, and I hadn't noticed anything out of the ordinary from his play so far other than the fact that he seemed a bit tighter than most preflop.

(Note: there is no cap once it's heads up)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 folds, MP2 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls

Flop: (2 players, 4.5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls

Turn: (2 players, 5.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, MP2 5-bets, Hero calls

River: (2 players, 15.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

I have conflicting thoughts on a couple of different streets, so I'd like to hear what others think.

Xhad · #2 10-10-2006, 12:30 AM

imo the only questionable street is the flop, and given the strength of your draw I think it's fine.

c/ring the turn usually does one bet better than betting. And you gave exactly the right amount of action, given that the three highest spades not accounted for are the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and Q9s isn't a very likely hand.

JJH3984 · #3 10-10-2006, 12:50 AM

well I think the flop is standard (at least it is for me). Yeah I checkraise here too. I also 4-bet and call a 5-bet and call down the river. I don't think putting another bet in anywhere would be smart, but I don't think you get good value if you don't at least 4-bet the turn.

If you won this hand, it was probably to an overplayed set or some weird suited connector.

crablegs33 · #4 10-10-2006, 01:09 AM

I think you played it well... villain's 5-bet here is cause for concern given your read...
I guess there's the possibility of him going nutso here with AxA[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a set of the boys, but i'd think unlikely... no sense in opening yourself up for another two big bets IMO...

James. · #5 10-10-2006, 12:53 PM

i would have considered 3betting pf if there is a chance he is stealing. if he is the type that doesn't seem positionally aware i would call. the rest is good if he would 3bet the flop with a flush draw or a combo of FD+overs. also, would villain know that you would play a draw this way? if he thinks you c/r the flop with a made hand only then we could consider giving more action. with no reads this is good.

SixForty · #6 10-10-2006, 02:21 PM

Here are my thoughts on the hand.

Preflop - James, do you really 3-bet that from the blind? If he opened on the Button and I had a read on him, I do it. But with no real read, and this guy being far enough off the Button, I didn't feel comfortable with it. I just figured I've got a good enough hand to see a flop at this price, and I'll play some poker after that.

Flop - This is completely standard for me.

Turn - When he 3-bet it, I still thought that there's a good enough chance that I'm ahead of him. I still think there are lots of hands in his range that he'll 3-bet here on the turn, not necessarily putting me on the flush given the way I played it. I think he'd 3-bet a set here (JJ, 88, or 77), a smaller flush (98s, or even Q9s or Q8s if he'd raise these preflop) or even an overpair with a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (AA or QQ)

I guess my concern after the fact was that I didn't really think about how I'd respond to a 5-bet. As soon as he reraised me again, I was almost positive that I was toast. So being 5-bet leaves me in a position of having to pay 2 more bets to see a showdown just to confirm what I already know.

One thing that I guess I should mention about this game (and maybe live games in general for those who don't play) Even though there is no cap heads up, it is still a mental barrier for most people. As a result, people don't often go over the cap without the nuts. This is just an observation from my own experience, but it seems to hold true for almost all players other than maniacs.

So this is part of what made me not like my 4-bet anymore. As soon as he 5-bet, I was getting 7.5-1 on a calldown, but I really don't think I'm good that often. I'm good maybe 1 time in 30 here.

Given all that, should I use some preplanning on the turn and decide to call down from his 3-bet? Is the value that I lose by not 4-betting him small enough compared to the value that I save by not having to call down his 5-bet (since I just can't let myself fold the second nuts in a pot that big! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

somapopper · #7 10-10-2006, 04:21 PM

I don't know how you can say that a 5-bet indicates the absolute nuts 29/30 times against a relative unknown in a blind defense situation.

JJH3984 · #8 10-10-2006, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So this is part of what made me not like my 4-bet anymore. As soon as he 5-bet, I was getting 7.5-1 on a calldown, but I really don't think I'm good that often. I'm good maybe 1 time in 30 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're good more than that (maybe not 1 time in 7, but probably close to it especially against an unknown). I think you lose too much value from sets and smaller flushes when you don't 4bet it. Someone could do the math, but it won't be me.

I do agree that in live games 5 bets generally means the nuts.

Xhad · #9 10-10-2006, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how you can say that a 5-bet indicates the absolute nuts 29/30 times against a relative unknown in a blind defense situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why an MP2 open-raise is assumed to be a blind steal.

somapopper · #10 10-10-2006, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how you can say that a 5-bet indicates the absolute nuts 29/30 times against a relative unknown in a blind defense situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why an MP2 open-raise is assumed to be a blind steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

A little hyperbole. I don't think MP2 is raising with BS. I do think that MP2 will, rightly, give hero less credit for a real hand in a HU pot where he's defending his blind.