How do you learn to think during poker?

Jack Bando · #1 10-08-2006, 10:28 PM

What I mean is, although I feel I'm a good play at Micro Limits, (20K+ hands, 5K of those at $2 NL, another 5K at $5 NL, and 10K+ at $10 NL, with BB/100's of 17,9.6,7.4 respectively, so I can at least beat those limits on a failry consistant basis) every once in a while a hand comes up wher in hindsight I'm playing a level that might not even be first level thinking.

Two hands this happened today at $25 NL (taking a shot).

#1-I raise pre (AQo) w 2 calls, flop Q56r, I half pot, get raised, I minraise, he goes AI for $1.8 more, I call. He has 55.

#2-I call a raise from BB with AJo (I know, I know), J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check raise and get called. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I half pot, he raises, I shove, called, he has 99.

These don't seem like hands that are hard to get away from, but what am I doing?! How does one stop playing on autopilot, a really stupid autopilot in some hands, and think?

(These hands were not an attempt to post a bad beat, just an example of my occasional stupidity.)

Thanks for reading, and thanks for any replies.

BSman77 · #2 10-08-2006, 10:39 PM

I don't think you have an accurate perception of these two hands.

In fact, it is quite difficult to get away from TPTK, especially against shortstacks. The way you played it may have even been correct. You should play for pot control once you see strength in your opponent in these types of situations especailly if you and your opponent have full buyins behind you.

Jack Bando · #3 10-08-2006, 10:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you have an accurate perception of these two hands.

In fact, it is quite difficult to get away from TPTK, especially against shortstacks. The way you played it may have even been correct. You should play for pot control once you see strength in your opponent in these types of situations especailly if you and your opponent have full buyins behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the hands (wrong order time wise though, doesn't matter really). They weren't shortstacked at all, and I wasn't thinking about pot control. The AQ hand my thought process was either "..." or "Ooh TPTK. Ha, he raised, ha he went AI. Ca-ching....oh crap." The AJ hand might have been "he's got AK, he's got AK, I'll shove here, ah crap." Could I/someone get away form these hands? probably. Should they consider a set/overpair/that they're beat? Yes. How? That's what I'm asking, if anyone used to crash and burn on autopilot, and if they've stopped, how they did it.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $22.80
UTG+1: $58.20
MP1: $36.65
CO: $25.30
Button: $32.95
SB: $43.20
Hero: $23.40

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, CO raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($1.6, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.5, CO calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($6.6, 2 players)
Hero bets $3, CO raises to $9, Hero raises all-in $20.15, CO calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($46.9, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $46.9)

Results:
Final pot: $46.9

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19.40
UTG+1: $18.80
MP1: $37.55
Hero: $24.50
MP3: $15
CO: $52.15
Button: $40.25
SB: $20.35
BB: $4.75

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises to $1.25, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($4.1, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, MP3 raises to $6, BB folds, Hero raises to $12, MP3 raises all-in $13.75, Hero calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($31.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $31.6)

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($31.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $31.6)

Results:
Final pot: $31.6

CaucasianAsian29 · #4 10-08-2006, 11:05 PM

My standard line w/ tptk, is to lead the flop for 3/4 pot. Then if i'm just called I usually check the turn for pot control.

Checking the turn is actually reader dependent for me. If i'm kup against calling stations, i'll bet the turn and river. Getting reraised on the flop or turn makes me slow doesn alot(and I start. check/calling . I think there's some good posts in the master stickies on playing tptk and tpgk.

Dastone · #5 10-08-2006, 11:57 PM

I don't think these hands are that easy to get away from so I can understand your problem. I think you're going to have to work harder on trying to get better reads on your opponnents, and then you will know what questions to ask yourself before you make your decisions.

I'm not saying that your not working hard now or anything like that, and I don't know how easy or hard it is to get a good read on your opponnents at wherever you may be playing, but I think what you should be asking yourself when you get raised in these situations is," would my opponnent raise me here, for this amount, if he could not beat my hand?"

If you have gotten a read, and you are sure that your read on your opponnent is accurate, then you can possibly get away from these hands, or go forward with them.

Also, once you have established your read on your opponnent you might want to figure out if he is the type to even consider what you may be holding or if he is just raising because he likes the strength of his own hand.

ColdSteel · #6 10-09-2006, 12:03 AM

I'm curious why you decided to play the flop the way you did in your AQ hand?

Jack Bando · #7 10-09-2006, 12:08 AM

Dastone, paragraph #2 is what I was asking about, thanks. I know I have the ability to fold hands that I feel are beat and call/raise with ones that aren't beat, it's just in these two examples I wasn't thinking clearly. I just need to know how to think and what Q's to ask myself.

Cold, you're joking right?

ColdSteel · #8 10-09-2006, 12:13 AM

Definitely not joking. Would you have played the same way if everyone were $100 deep?

Jack Bando · #9 10-09-2006, 12:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely not joking. Would you have played the same way if everyone were $100 deep?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, instead of going AI for a little more, he'd reraise a healthy amount and I'd have a tough decision.

The reason I asked if you were serious was my main argument in this thread is "Sometimes I completely forget to think of what my opponent coud have, what they rep with their actions, and blindly donk off with TPTK even though I should bet less/call/fold instead. HELP." so I was wondering why you were asking what I was thinking when my whole point was sometimes the answer is nothing.

ColdSteel · #10 10-09-2006, 12:55 AM

Ah, well then I'll just come right to the point.

By half-potting a semi-coodinated board and then min-raising, you are playing like you don't want to "lose customers." Problem is, you don't have the nuts. You have TPTK.

You are overvaluing TPTK, and you are also failing to protect your hand. These are two seperate problems, and they probably are manifesting themselves in your late-street game in different ways, but on the flop here they have a common solution: bet more. Bet more to protect your hand from draws. "Protecting your hand" doesn't mean forcing the draws to fold. It means giving them a bad price to continue. Most of the time this means betting the full pot.

Betting more on the flop doesn't make you overvalue your hand more, ironically. This is for two reasons. First, you're not betting less to keep customers, as we just discussed above. Second, if you bet pot and get re-raised, you usually have an easy decision: fold. This is opponent dependant, but true pretty often.

You don't know what the opponent has yet. Its still to early to tell. Ask yourself what kinds of hands might call. The answer to that question is usually made hands and draws. Then decide how to make those hands be making a mistake.