Should I play this differently on any street?

cowboy2579 · #1 10-04-2006, 08:17 PM

HORSE - 1st Orbit O/8, no reads.

Poker Stars
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP1 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3BB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6BB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Results:
Final pot: 8BB

Buzz · #2 10-04-2006, 10:35 PM

Cowboy - Perfect!

Buzz

Duck Rabbit · #3 10-04-2006, 10:58 PM

Shouldn't we raise this hand preflop? Other than that, everything looks good.

-newb

TheJackyl · #4 10-05-2006, 12:40 PM

I agree with the raise preflop, other than that, played perfectly. I assume hitting that Ace allowed you to scoop the pot as well?

cowboy2579 · #5 10-06-2006, 01:38 AM

I am so not getting into the raise PF or not debate again. I got 1/4ed by his 7432.

wiseheart · #6 10-06-2006, 08:00 AM

Ill get into it. Good job, this does better w/o
a raise if it brings along more opponents.

P.S. They are calling with 2347 whether you raise or not.

TheJackyl · #7 10-06-2006, 01:11 PM

you played it perfect (I would have raised pre, but you don't want to debate that, so I won't say anymore on that part), just bad luck with the getting 1/4'ed

TMTTR · #8 10-06-2006, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am so not getting into the raise PF or not debate again. I got 1/4ed by his 7432.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is funny -- you don't want to get into it, but a PF raise might have knocked the SB out (very player dependent of course). The river ended bad for you but there was no way of knowing that given the play.

Buzz · #9 10-06-2006, 06:55 PM

I’m tired of the pre-flop raise-or-not issue myself.
In general, you do make the game tougher by raising before the flop.
In general, you do tend to get more money into the pot when you raise before the flop.
In general, you do increase your chances of winning when you raise before the flop.

Opponents holding hands like 2-3-4-7 who don’t know the game well, won’t know what to do when you raise. They’ll either fold, which may seem good to you (although in reality, maybe it isn’t), or they’ll pay double to see the flop with an inferior hand, which certainly is good for you. And then they may be more likely to stay in the hand and chase, which also certainly is good for you.

Opponents who clearly have superior skill, especially after the flop, probably don’t really want to gamble. But by raising before the flop, you force them to gamble if they want to play. Although they still probably will be able to cope with your pre-flop raises and although they should still have an edge, you will at least reduce their edge by forcing them to either fold or gamble.

In my humble opinion, A-2-3-K, with the king suited to the deuce, is a very strong Omaha-8 starting hand while 2-3-4-7, with the seven suited to the deuce is a barely playable Omaha-8 starting hand.

But although 2-3-4-7-suited may be playable against unknown hands, if Villain got a peek at Hero’s cards, Villain would do better to fold before the flop! Villain’s 2-3-4-7 figures to do very poorly against A-2-3-K. It doesn’t work out that way this time, but A-2-3-K is a huge pre-flop favorite and usually would prevail.

I hope I’ve provided some good arguments for pre-flop raising with this fine starting hand. Now for the other side of the coin.
----------
It is true that Hero increases his chances of winning (with any hand) by raising before the flop, if raising before the flop has the tendency, as it usually does, to limit the field. But Hero wins more when he wins and has more customers paying him off.

One of the skills of Omaha-8 is knowing when to ditch your hand. Presuming Hero has this skill, and is better at it than most opponents (or why is Hero sitting at this particular table???), then Hero will get out of a hand when he should, in order to cut his losses. But Hero’s opponents, presuming them less skilled than Hero, will more often continue playing a hand after they should have folded it.

Presuming Hero can out-play his opponent after the flop, does Hero want SB holding 2-3-4-7 tagging along here, or not? The answer depends at least somewhat on how and also how well SB plays after the flop. In this particular case, SB catches two pairs plus third nut low draw on the flop…. and so he continues in a three handed contest and lucks out on the river. Would he continue with a worse flop? Would he continue with 48J, instead of 47J? Hard to say – and we also don’t know if Villain had a non-nut diamond flush draw or not.

But with or without two diamonds, 2347 is a huge under-dog to A23K before the flop. Hero wins more often without Villain in the hand, but Hero doesn’t figure, before the flop, to net as much without Villain in the hand. In other words, Hero should want Villain seeing the flop and then chasing and getting stuck in the pot.

As it turns out, with this board (flop, turn and river), 2-3-4-7 is the better hand. But usually 2-3-4-7 would get the crap kicked out of it by A-2-3-K.

You may be thinking that A-2-3-K, having the best of it, by far, before the flop, at least compared to 2-3-4-7, should get as much money in the pot as possible. But one of the reasons A-2-3-K is such a fine starting hand is that it has such an excellent chance of finding a good fit with the flop, and then ending up a winner at the showdown.

Assuming the player holding A-2-3-K can play better (or at least as well) after the flop as the player holding 2-3-4-7, the player holding A-2-3-K should want the player holding 2-3-4-7 to continue after the flop. He doesn’t want this particular unfortunate board (flop, turn, and river), but usually he will profit more when a player holding 2-3-4-7 decides to see the flop, than when the player with those cards decides to fold before the flop.

And then there are all those hands with which some players see the flop – all those hands that are not as good as 2-3-4-7. Hero doesn’t know that everybody behind him will fold when he limps with his A-2-3-K-suited-to-the-king. He hopes those opponents will stay in the hand. He encourages those players to stay in the hand by making it as easy as possible for them to get sucked in. He tries to pull those players in, not push them out. As it turns out, that tactic doesn’t work this time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t work next time. Hero wants as many customers as possible when he makes a winner with this excellent starting hand.

Alas, this time only three opponents stay in the hand, and then Hero has the bad luck to get screwed (counterfeited) on the river. But that won’t always happen.

Hero played this hand as well as it can be played.

Buzz