Flop play for top pair against big field

f97tosc · #1 10-03-2006, 09:30 PM

Hi all,

This is one of my first posts. Sorry if this is a newbie question and/or if it is too long.

I struggle with "made" hands like top pair against a big field (like 6-8) players. I play live low stakes like 2-4, and most players are loose and unsophisticated. My instinct is to be aggressive and protect my hand, but it is often difficult to knock people out, and with the large number of opponents they collectively have a huge number of outs. Plus there is the small (or maybe not so small, with 7 other people) risk that somebody already flopped an even better hand.

For example, Hero has J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], limps in with 7 other players (no preflop raises). I have not specified Hero's position yet, that is part of the question below.

The flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Consider the following positions and action from other players.

1. check, Hero?, 6 to follow

2. check,check,check, Hero?, 4 to follow

3. check, check, bet, Hero?, 4 to follow

4. check, check, check, check, check, check, Hero?, 1 to follow

5. check, check, check, check, bet, call, Hero?, 1 to follow

6. check, bet, call, call, call, call, Hero?, 1 to follow

What is the right move in situations 1-6? Thanks!

Mr. GQ · #2 10-03-2006, 09:59 PM

Pick up and read Small Stake Hold Em by David Sklansky, Ed Miller and Mason Malmuth. Then you know what to do.

SixForty · #3 10-03-2006, 10:07 PM

Here's what I would normally do:

1 - Bet
2 - Bet
3 - Raise
4 - Bet
5 - Raise
6 - Call

If you want reasons - pick up Small Stakes Hold'Em! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Harv72b · #4 10-04-2006, 04:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I would normally do:

1 - Bet
2 - Bet
3 - Raise
4 - Bet
5 - Raise
6 - Raise

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter how you cut it, you flopped TPGK + backdoor flush & straight draws in a big, unraised pot. I am betting/raising for value almost regardless of the scenario.

Seriously, if you don't love this flop, then you probably shouldn't be playing KJo to begin with.

Mygtar · #5 10-04-2006, 09:06 AM

Hello and welcome.

1. Bet
2. Bet
3. Raise
4. Bet
5. Raise
6. call

I try not to be passive with TPGK on the. Make those with ISSD, and bottom pair pay to draw.

Peace,
Mygtar

SixForty · #6 10-04-2006, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I would normally do:

1 - Bet
2 - Bet
3 - Raise
4 - Bet
5 - Raise
6 - Raise

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter how you cut it, you flopped TPGK + backdoor flush & straight draws in a big, unraised pot. I am betting/raising for value almost regardless of the scenario.

Seriously, if you don't love this flop, then you probably shouldn't be playing KJo to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

After seeing this again this morning, I think you're right about #6. My initial reaction there was to wait for a safe turn card, since everybody is already in. But with this good hand in a pot that was just limped preflop, I probably have a good enough hand to be raising right now.

So yeah:

6 - Raise! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Dennisa · #7 10-04-2006, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I would normally do:

1 - Bet
2 - Bet
3 - Raise
4 - Bet
5 - Raise
6 - Call

If you want reasons - pick up Small Stakes Hold'Em! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't Small stakes holdem advocate check raising this hand frequently in early position to try to knock out draws? Especially in early position, they do not like betting out since you are giving correct pot odds for 2nd and 3rd pair plus gutshots to chase.

SixForty · #8 10-04-2006, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't Small stakes holdem advocate check raising this hand frequently in early position to try to knock out draws? Especially in early position, they do not like betting out since you are giving correct pot odds for 2nd and 3rd pair plus gutshots to chase.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I know where a bet is coming from, then yes. If there had been a preflop raise from the Button, then I'd plan to checkraise. If I know that the Button will always bet when checked to on the flop (because there's actually a lot of them out there!), then again, I'd probably try to checkraise.

But without a good idea that a bet is going to come from late position, it's too much of a chance to take. And having this flop check through is horrible in my opinion.

Gambit48x · #9 10-04-2006, 06:49 PM

1) Check hoping there is a bet form late position so you can check raise and drive people out
2)bet
3)raise
4)bet
5)raise
6)call, you call because no one will lay anything down at that point. and if a bad card comes down there is a chance that you bet and get check raised

Basically you want to play defensively with this hand it looks good but in reallity your in bad shape your best bet is to raise or check raise. With so many people in you might be less that 50% to win even with the best hand so you want to get as many people out but if there are many callers infront of you your best bet is to call on the flop and if a good card hits then raise no matter if there are calllers since the bet is larger the raise is one for value and there is only one card to come cutting down their chances of winning.

Dans Full · #10 10-04-2006, 07:50 PM

I've played at these kind of tables, and you need to put in the extra bet in all these scenarios, except maybe the last one. A raise from you isn't going to knock people out, and all your really doing is building a pot where you maybe the favorite at this point, but are less than 40% to win.
If an A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes off on the turn, and you have most/all of these people in the pot, you are almost always beaten. without putting in that extra bet, you are able to fold because you are not getting neccessary the odds to chase.