Listen to the drummer or the number?

[pooh74]

I haven't been very active until lately but just wanted to mention something regarding the excellent tool "SNGPT". Its a great way to get better at this game of ours, but I am really coming to the conclusion that at a certain point it gets overemphasized.

When I used to go back and review HHs (never did that enough, but it was known to happen), I used to just plug in ranges based on stacks, reads etc...But when I'm in a game, I have a whole different set of criteria I am using. Someone once referred to something called the "rhythm method" (I think schwza) and that is what I do more or less.

Its not as though SNGPT cannot take EVERYTHING you give it into account, but it does not notice the flow of the game, nor does the reviewer, you, afterwards, remember what the tone was...if you look at a hand in the context of the 5 preceding hands you may, but I for one never did this as well in a review session as I did in gametime.

Anyway, "rhythm". I think of it more as a person lying on their back and breathing, or ocean waves...the most active player (or player perceived as most active) on the bubble will cause calling ranges to rise and fall. When they are pushing more than others, calling ranges obviously go up in general...when, the active player is YOU, you must take this into account obviously and pull back slightly, but also "feel" when you are hitting a trough in the wave again after you have rested...IOW, calling ranges have leveled out against you. You will start to see patterns of how stack sizes are ordered etc...that will affect greatly when you are on a "peak" or in a "trough". I know we say things like "I have been pushing a lot" or "I've been quiet till now" but against who? who HAS been active? What are the calling ranges if you don't get involved and the guy after you pushes? Where does sngpt factor this in (we know it doesn't). I hate saying things like "feel", but because I have trouble articulating what in fact is happening, I use analogies and words like "feel", "intuition" as fillers for things that are difficult to encapsulate.

This to me is the essence of the game...yes, i know, I am not saying anything new, but I just wanted to reiterate that when we post and discuss bubble hands, (and AMT mentioned this) SNGPT should merely be there afterwards to help you confirm your hunches, know-how, and intuition and not be the almighty God telling you what to do. Of course when you are new to the game, you are shocked at plays that are +EV that you never thought would be, but at a certain point, experience and memory are your best friends.

[nuggetz87]

remember when you first started playing SNGs? if you followed your intuition you were doomed to failure or at least subpar performance.

obviously once you have more experience your intuition gets better. that just means it reflects the numbers more accurately than it used to.

part of the skill in SNGs is adjusting calling ranges according to the "feel" of the table. SNGPT can't help with that, it just analyzes your actions.

anyways i'm ranting...my main point is that people should learn this themselves over time. you can't go around telling inexperienced players that the numbers are sometimes wrong because that will just confuse them as to when they are wrong. i probably speak for anyone who has played more than a couple thousand SNGs when i say that the more experienced players already know this stuff. the newer players need to figure it out themselves though.

[AMT]

i didnt mean that sngpt is useless, and i know you dont either, pooh, i just wanted to make that perfectly clear, its the single best tool ive ever used (next to this forum) for sit and gos. my point was that its only what you make of it, so using it in all respects, using it a lot, and taking it with a grain of salt based on your own intentions/perceptions is the way to go.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
remember when you first started playing SNGs? if you followed your intuition you were doomed to failure or at least subpar performance.

obviously once you have more experience your intuition gets better. that just means it reflects the numbers more accurately than it used to.

part of the skill in SNGs is adjusting calling ranges according to the "feel" of the table. SNGPT can't help with that, it just analyzes your actions.

anyways i'm ranting...my main point is that people should learn this themselves over time. you can't go around telling inexperienced players that the numbers are sometimes wrong because that will just confuse them as to when they are wrong. i probably speak for anyone who has played more than a couple thousand SNGs when i say that the more experienced players already know this stuff. the newer players need to figure it out themselves though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was saying it for us not them...But I did mention that at first, for newer players, it is essential.

[BHokie1]

Determining a villians calling range is by feel/reads/intuition.

I think in schwza's blog he talks about the rhythm method, there's just certain times of the month you don't go all in

SNGPT is a great tool for calculating the EV of a given play with your reads of a villians range. It does not simulate a tournament as a whole, or calculate the chance that the next hand or 2 may be more +EV, or that a villian calling range will widen so that you have less +EV pushes later on when the blinds are larger and more valuable.

[bellytimber]

pooh, nuggetz,

I agree. "Feel," "intuition," "rhythm," "flow," etc, words like this are absolutely essential to expert poker.

But at the end of the analysis, my feel and intuition regarding the rhythm and flow of a hand are ultimately expressed in a specific numerical range for the villain. I might be wrong in coming up with the range, but that's my problem, not SNGPT's.

SNGPT doesn't screw up the numbers, we do.

Poker is very qualitative, and can be super hard to quantify. But we should always try. And that's when SNGPT comes in. I don't think the numbers are ever "wrong."

In other words: Listen to the drummer, because he's drumming you a number.

[cakewalk]

we lead many lives yet we live only one.

[ryanghall]

I made a post like this a while back. Once you realize that not everything needs to go by SNGPT (some players never do), you'll really see your ROI shoot up.

Ryan

[Roland32]

I often in my post make reference to how I am a "guts " player. Or playing on intuition, usually I am making a joke when stating this, but it also funny because it is true.

[K䲰䮥n]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you realize that not everything needs to go by SNGPT (some players never do), you'll really see your ROI shoot up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I dunno. PP only charges me $35/hour for playing the 22s. I think it's cheap.