AK TP on dry board - 4 callers preflop!

[z28dreams]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($16.65)
SB ($45.86)
BB ($34.25)
Hero ($25.85)
MP ($58.90)
CO ($36.05)

No reads on villain, i'm very new to the table.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, MP calls $1.25, CO calls $1.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $1.15, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($6.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $5.95</font>, Hero calls $24.60 (All-In), MP folds, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls $18.65.

Turn: ($55.45) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($55.45) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $55.45

My confusion here is this: With this many callers preflop, the pot gets bloated very quickly.

If I just call here, the pot becomes $18, and i'm pretty much committed. Any decent sized raise commits me.

Is there any other play than a push here? I feel like I'm WA/WB with the BB who leads into me for $6, but I don't really want the other 3 getting in the pot and sucking out either.

[Vammakala]

I agree, I think this is a push/fold situation. I don't see your opponent doing this with a great hand unless he's a decent player (which he could be, judging from the stack size and the bet-size). So here's my break up for the hand:
1. You raise strong UTG, if your opponent here in BB understands the positional play - he can be quite sure for you to have pretty strong hand. Strong raises often mean JJ- too because "they don't want calls" but, I guess 5 BB in this case doesn't necessarily mean exessively big bet.
2. He leads into you, even though he'd have a GREAT chance of checkraising with the chance of getting callers in between before pushing. Why does he lead then? Well often advocated lead with a set into probable strength is certainly viable here. But he still bets it quite strongly? He could lead a bit less, hoping to induce a raise? Maybe he just hits top pair and wants to take it down right here.
3. If he thinks this way, he probably has a hand such as KQ/KJ, wanting to take it down. He might also be betting a draw, hoping for a string of calls instead of a reraise. After your reraise, he figures "hell, I probably have the odds with 45".
4. If he's a bad player (this is often the case), he doesn't think it this way, he just looks at his hand, mm... top pair is gut =&gt; bet. A front bet into preflop raiser often means good hand, but not a monster, these guys just love to slowplay so that leans more towards another top pair hand. You'd think he'd CR with two pair or better at least, knowing that if you have anything, your flop bet will still commit a lot of your stack and if you have as good as TPTK, you might not be folding anymore - especially if there are callers in front.
5. He's betting into multiple opponents. Again, if he's a good player, he knows he needs pretty big strength to do this - doubtfully he'd be bluffing. If he's a bad player, well, he doesn't really know or care. He just wants the munies.
6. Generally it's advocated to not go broke with one pair, but taking into account the level of play and the average level of opponents, I don't see anything particularly wrong with your play.

Many things speak for the strenth of BB's hand - his stack, his position, his action (if you assume he's good). But with the assumption of him having the stack by accident, such as early double up, most of these actually make his hand seem weaker! I'd rather believe he has a hand such as KQ which would make this play right in this particular hand in this particular game. If BB has a clue, he could easily put you on something like AA and make this bet with a set. (Or he was an idiot slowplaying AA)

That being said, I'm saying he showed either KQ, 66 or 33. Since people only post hands they lost, I'm going to say 66. But I think this is a good play in many cases. From my experiences in Party NL25, people go broke with much less than TPTK.

[CoachDirty]

I agree that any significant raise you make here will most likely pot commit you with TPTK. There are no real draws here. Unless we know BB is a total idiot, this donk bet into 4 players should mean he has a hand. How often is his hand KQ or KJ, and how often is it a set or 2 pair. With out a read I think I like your play, though I hate getting stacked with TP.

[z28dreams]

Vamma -

You cited almost exactly what my thought process was at the time the hand was played.

Given that it was 25nl, I just shoved it in, expecting the donks at this level to be more likely to c/r a hand like 33 or 66.

I don't think calling here works at all, because the pot will be $18 on the turn (or more), and I'll only have $18 left in my stack. Any turn bet or raise basically commits me.

[EJXD2]

I don't mind the reraise all-in. His bet into you could easily indicate TP with a kicker worse than yours. Since he called your raise, then he probably has you beat, but you're ahead more often than not to take the pot down right there without pricing in anyone else.

[avfletch]

Given the board only holding a single draw (45) this bet either means a set or top pair with a worse kicker, excluding the extremely unlikely 2 pair combinations.

If you push the flop then he is never folding a set but might get off top pair with a worse kicker. You may also force out a player behind you who would've called with KQ if you call.

[z28dreams]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the board only holding a single draw (45) this bet either means a set or top pair with a worse kicker, excluding the extremely unlikely 2 pair combinations.

If you push the flop then he is never folding a set but might get off top pair with a worse kicker. You may also force out a player behind you who would've called with KQ if you call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This actually is a good point - if they hold KQ, the action may go check, I bet, they fold on turn.

The problem is, if I just call, and they lead again (very likely), can I find a fold then?

[gimmetheloot]

Call, you are WA/WB, and if you are WA, even if another person comes along, they can add at most 3 outs thaat you are dodging. Also, a push folds out ALL worse hands, and gets called by ALL better hands.

[Buckmulligan]

My fear is that our push only gets called from the set/two pair hands. I'm not sure that Kq or especially JT-KT call this all in hardly ever. Is there a way we can raise this to tenish or something to drive out the field but ensure that we get play from KJ, KQ?

[kokiri]

it's an ugly spot, no mistake, but i pretty much hate the push. Essentially it folds no better hands and gives worse hands the best chance they can have to get away.

I call here - i expect to get called behind by worse K's (that's good, right) and god knows what else trash. I'm not saying I wont go broke here: i might, but I want to make sure that I maximise my winnings against worse hands, and this is a good way to minimise them.

You might be right that the BB doesn't have a set, but what about the other villains - if you give them a chance to act before the last 3/4 of your stack goes in, you might learn something (hint: if they fold, they didn't have a set...;-) )

If you call and everyone else folds, the pot is $18 and you have about $18 left behind. In what way are you committed? Even if you are pot committed, surely his calling range is tighter than his pushing range - you're calling anyway so let him push crap he might fold?