King high against a fish. Call river?

Raiseren1 · #1 09-25-2006, 04:26 PM

No stats on villain, but he has open limped a few times al ready in a few hands

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (5.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Vern · #2 09-25-2006, 04:34 PM

Your line lets your opponent check behind with any hand you beat and bet any hand that beats you, so your river line is perfect for him to maximize his profit. But still, I am lost here too. If you b/f you still give out the BB but don't get the show down. If you c/c the turn/river you are only calling when behind. I think of all I hit it one more time with a bet on the river and fold to a raise. I see no benefit in c/c the river as nothing below a K high is going to bet often enough here to make up for all the times an pair or better bets there.

B/F the river is my first choice unless I suspect he is capable of playing rope-a-dope with me. If I know he is capable of a rope-a-dope play, then a c/c on the river is probably the better line.

Raiseren1 · #3 09-25-2006, 04:58 PM

Ok. In the subject I said he was a fish, but I do not have any real reads on him, and I do not think the average fish calls rivers with worse hands. By checking I give him the oppurnuty to bluff, or get a free cheap showdown if he has a seven/jack/TT.

PunchOut · #4 09-25-2006, 06:01 PM

bet the river. i would say this is +EV against this kind of player. If the board doenst pair i would consider a check fold.

raphet99 · #5 09-25-2006, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By checking I give him the oppurnuty to bluff,

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, what opportunity? You have no hand. Maybe he'll bet his A high and you can...oh wait....Doh!

So, if villain checks behind with a small pair, great you save one bet. The bet on the end generally means something at this level unless you have a specific read. If you fear villain is bluffing by all means call it down and take a note. I don't do it as a general thing...I think it's a loser in the long run as too often the calling station has a smaller pair or hell, even a A with a small kicker.

raphet99 · #6 09-25-2006, 07:02 PM

With a bit more thought, I think this kind of situation comes down to what hand range are you putting this villain on. I still think you are beat here but that is because I see villain limp from UTG and call two streets on a coordinated broadway flop and bet the river. Could be Ax or Jx or possible two broaways...straight possible. Is it a PP? is it two spades? I'm not sure, but it's probably one of those hands and more likely one of his cards hit a pair and that is why villain bet on the end.

What range of hands did you put villain on?

emKay · #7 09-26-2006, 01:40 PM

When you bet he is never calling with a worse hand. When you check there is a slim chance that he is bluffing with whatever shiit he called all the way, so when you want to go to SD a c/c is better.

Nfinity · #8 09-26-2006, 01:57 PM

Your Turn line is off. Be more inclined to Check/Call here in these situations where you probably don't have the best hand, but have a ton of outs to improve.

You can't fold to a raise here, and your giving your opponent an excellent opportunity to charge you the most when your drawing. Checking sets you up for a nice Check-Raise on the River sometimes.

If the Turn gets checked through you can Fire on the River UI, depending on the overall board texture.

I think, anyway.

Raiseren1 · #9 09-26-2006, 02:01 PM

Against a loose player. Isn't it possible that I am actually valuebetting turn? And if he has a small pair he may even fold?

Nfinity · #10 09-26-2006, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a loose player. Isn't it possible that I am actually valuebetting turn? And if he has a small pair he may even fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's loose, so yes there is a marginal chance he holds something here you beat, some weird flush draw. But the Ace on the flop eliminates many of those illustrious 3OC flop peels we know and love.

But his looseness hurts you here, it makes it more likely he holds a hand that beats you, but is too weak to for him to be raising on the flop. I wouldn't be surprised to see a J or weak Ace here a lot of the time. He could hold a 4. He might fold that.