Common theistic error?

bunny · #1 09-19-2006, 11:55 PM

It seems to me that a common theistic error is to argue (usually within two different discussions):

a) We cannot know God’s mind (therefore [topic under discussion] is inexplicable)
b) It makes sense that God would want us to know about him (therefore we can trust the bible is the word of God, the catholic church is the proper arbiter of doctrine,...or similar)

I don’t think it is consistent to hold both of these positions. My question is, which is more reasonable? I dont think you need to believe in God to have a view on that question.

Any opinions?

madnak · #2 09-19-2006, 11:59 PM

I think a is much more reasonable.

Lestat · #3 09-20-2006, 12:33 AM

a). seems more plausible to me. To me, the bible can't possibly be trusted, because man had far too much of a hand in it.

Lando · #4 09-20-2006, 12:43 AM

My dilemma is:

A: God is supposedly "all knowing" (this implies he knows every single question you could ever ask him)

This implies he KNEW I was gonna be born before my parents did, it means he knows everything I do before I do it. Therefore I have no choice on this Earth. Therefore I don't get to choose if I go to heaven or hell. Why would a just God do this to anyone?

B: God doesn't know EVERYTHING

What kind of God doesn't know everything? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

bunny · #5 09-20-2006, 12:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My dilemma is:

A: God is supposedly "all knowing" (this implies he knows every single question you could ever ask him)

This implies he KNEW I was gonna be born before my parents did, it means he knows everything I do before I do it. Therefore I have no choice on this Earth. Therefore I don't get to choose if I go to heaven or hell. Why would a just God do this to anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]
God knowing what you will choose doesnt imply you are not making a free choice. The paradox arises from conceiving of God as existing within time - knowing what we will do in the future, then sitting wherever he is and watching us do it. It is a common theistic view that God exists outside of time and that all times are equally accessible to him - it is not that he knew you would choose option A over B before you chose it, it is that the concept of before doesnt mean anything when applied to him.

bunny · #6 09-20-2006, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
a). seems more plausible to me. To me, the bible can't possibly be trusted, because man had far too much of a hand in it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I expect a will be universally preferred by atheists. If you imagine that you believed in the bible as the work of god, not man though then you obviously would trust it. My point (obscure as it may be) is that if you are going to defend your belief in the bible or the authority of the church with the "Obviously God would want us to know about him" argument then it is inconsistent to later on rely on a "God's mind is unknowable" argument when answering the problem of evil.

I wondered if catholics have a way of reconciling the two positions? (or any other theist who relies on both arguments)

Lando · #7 09-20-2006, 12:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My dilemma is:

A: God is supposedly "all knowing" (this implies he knows every single question you could ever ask him)

This implies he KNEW I was gonna be born before my parents did, it means he knows everything I do before I do it. Therefore I have no choice on this Earth. Therefore I don't get to choose if I go to heaven or hell. Why would a just God do this to anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]
God knowing what you will choose doesnt imply you are not making a free choice. The paradox arises from conceiving of God as existing within time - knowing what we will do in the future, then sitting wherever he is and watching us do it. It is a common theistic view that God exists outside of time and that all times are equally accessible to him - it is not that he knew you would choose option A over B before you chose it, it is that the concept of before doesnt mean anything when applied to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... This is very hard for me to comprehend.

Lestat · #8 09-20-2006, 01:04 AM

<font color="blue"> If you imagine that you believed in the bible as the work of god, not man though then you obviously would trust it. </font>

No, I wouldn't. This right here is a HUGE error! Even if I were convinced that the bible was the word of God, which he wasnted handed down, it still would be wrong to logically conclude that it is accurate. Why would you?

First of all, man has betrayed God before. Not to mention typos, misinterpretations, etc. etc. No... It cannot logically be concluded that it is 100% sure the bible is the accurate word of God no matter what other arguments there are. So going with, "We cannot know the mind of God", makes much more sense.

bunny · #9 09-20-2006, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God knowing what you will choose doesnt imply you are not making a free choice. The paradox arises from conceiving of God as existing within time - knowing what we will do in the future, then sitting wherever he is and watching us do it. It is a common theistic view that God exists outside of time and that all times are equally accessible to him - it is not that he knew you would choose option A over B before you chose it, it is that the concept of before doesnt mean anything when applied to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... This is very hard for me to comprehend.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or perhaps I am just not good at explaining it. What I mean is that the standard omniscient vs free will argument goes:

God knows today what you will do tomorrow
Therefore you cannot choose to do anything else tomorrow
therefore you cant have free will (as your choice is already pre-determined)
Therefore an omniscient god cannot exist in a universe with free will.

The error is that this only follows if God is existing "today" and I dont think that is correct. I think he exists outside of the physical universe (since I think he made it) - this includes time. In other words, God doesnt exist at point xyz and a time t. So it is technically wrong to say "God knows this before you do it" because all time is equally accessible to God - he knows the birth, life and death of the entire universe all-at-once.

I find it a useful analogy to think of God looking back at the universe at the "end of time". All things have happened and he can see any given instant with perfect clarity - everything is in his past. Now there is no problem. You may know what I chose yesterday, but that doesnt imply that I didnt freely make that choice.

Another analogy is to imagine god reading a book - a book containing characters who all happen to be making choices and guiding how the story goes. He can skip ahead a few pages, then back, then forward again - whatever he likes and the story still maintains its consistency and the characters still have free will - he can see them choose, then see what those consequences are "all at once" because he is not operating within the book himself.

Lestat · #10 09-20-2006, 01:12 AM

Bunny-

I think the paradox stems from the circular problem of having an all-knowing and all-powerful God.

If God is all-knowing then He knows what even He will do. This suggests that He is powerless to change His mind and do something else. If He did so, then he would've been wrong the first time, so He can't be all-knowing. And if He can't change what He does, then He can't be all-powerful.

It's late and I'm tired, but I think it goes something like that.