What Does It Mean To Play Non-Logically?

theBruiser500 · #1 09-19-2006, 12:58 AM

Okay the question above isn't worded great but this comes up frequently and I don't quite understand... Everyone talks about Hollengil, or Johnny Lodden, or Grinder, these are guys that go by quote unquote "feel" and not logic. What does that mean they're thinking exactly during the hand? Do they not think about pot odds? Do they're minds completely blank out and their hands just move to the right amount of chips? I have at best a vague understanding of what it means to be a "feel" player.

luckychewy · #2 09-19-2006, 01:00 AM

i sure hope bld replies to this thread cause everytime this subject comes up he's the first player i think of. his style is probably more unique than anyone i've ever seen.

theBruiser500 · #3 09-19-2006, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i sure hope bld replies to this thread cause everytime this subject comes up he's the first player i think of. his style is probably more unique than anyone i've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

what does he play like?

Prevaricator · #4 09-19-2006, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i sure hope bld replies to this thread cause everytime this subject comes up he's the first player i think of. his style is probably more unique than anyone i've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

just because he has a unique style and doesn't play ABC does not mean that he is irrational.

cero_z · #5 09-19-2006, 01:09 AM

Hi Bruiser,

I think they do what the good non-intuitive players do, but they may be less able to explain why they do what they do. In a nutshell, these players are great at observation and rapid adjustment. Obviously, you and other players who consider themselves "logical" players, do this as well; it's mandatory to win against good players. The difference between you and a non-logical player is that his basic strategy is probably less clearly defined in his conscious mind. As ZJ and others have pointed out, this means that the non-logical player may have huge holes in his basic strategy, or not, but that his strengths (observation and adjustment) overcome the flaws, or he has "lucked into" a decent basic strategy through trial and error (but no study).

luckychewy · #6 09-19-2006, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i sure hope bld replies to this thread cause everytime this subject comes up he's the first player i think of. his style is probably more unique than anyone i've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

just because he has a unique style and doesn't play ABC does not mean that he is irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never said he was irrational. i thought the point of the thread was players who don't play "logically". i don't really like using the term logically here since obviously bld has a very succesful style and most likely has very in depth thought process' which makes his style succesful.

bruiser, from what i understand he's very lag and plays a lot more hands than almost anyone. i've never played with him(although watched him a bit on party) but based on the hands he posts occasionaly and what people say he is an sick good hand reader.

Prevaricator · #7 09-19-2006, 01:38 AM

okay, fine. i will say that just because BLD has a unique style and doesn't play ABC does not mean he doesn't play logically

i think that all winning players must play logically, and those who disagree are disputing what it means to play 'logically'

MDMA · #8 09-19-2006, 01:39 AM

I think no successfull player plays "Non-logically" (illogical?).

Instead, the best players are just logical on the next level, i.e realize that the level of logical thinking is of course illogical for the level directly below, i.e the "current" level of players. This is basically doing stuff like bluffing when it just cannot be a bluff (for oddsreasons or whatever), pulling stuff like that off all the time. It is not lack of logic, it is just DEEPER logic than what the common player is able to comprehend. Guys like BLD realizes what the exploitable points of the "normal" logical thinking among good players are, and abuse that in a way that seems illogical to people who just do not understand it.

luckychewy · #9 09-19-2006, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
okay, fine. i will say that just because BLD has a unique style and doesn't play ABC does not mean he doesn't play logically

i think that all winning players must play logically, and those who disagree are disputing what it means to play 'logically'

[/ QUOTE ]

you are right. i am terrible at explaining myself which should be pretty obvious from most of my posts. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

i think what i was trying to say mdma says pretty well in the post above.

Staycool · #10 09-19-2006, 01:57 AM

From Bld's own descriptions of his thought process (estimating hand ranges, etc), i'd be pretty surpsied if he grouped himself into the feel category

extreme aggression does not necessarily imply non-logical play

i would say the term 'feel player' refers to someone who primaily thinks about whether he's ahead or behind, with less concrete processing of hand ranges and pot odds. so instead of enumerating the different combos of hands and percentages, they just say, based on this action, timing, etc, i'm good here. (subconcious thought)

you need 'feel' skills to play in marginal, difficult situations--like tons of reraised pots with a wide range of holdings, but if you're doing the work of calucating ranges and equity, you're not just a feel player.