absolutely absurd call?

samoleus · #1 09-15-2006, 10:28 AM

this hand happened a long long time ago - before I started posting on twoplustwo. will give more background on my opponent later, but one important point about him is that he always tried to make sure he was paid off to some degree on his huge hands.

I'll just post the hand without much in the way of details for now. I'll be going away in a few hours for the weekend, so I won't be able to get in a detailed discussion about it until next week.

Obviously, everyone is going to say this is an easy fold. In fact a call here is really kind of asinine. But immediately dumping this hand in the "idiot thread bin", I'd suggest trying to carefully concoct an argument for calling. Just as an exercise if you will. You can return to the world where the sky is blue later - but if only for a moment, think crazy if you can.

Here is the hand. Opponent has 8800 and I cover. One limper to me, I raise to 70 with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Folds to my opponent in the small blind, and he repops to 250. Limper folds, I call.

Flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bets 450 into pot of 540. I call. Turn is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. He bets 1200 into pot of 1450. He still has 6900 behind so I call. I can win a lot if I hit and he has a legitamate hand, and perhaps I can represent the flush if a spade hits.

River is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], completing the possible flush. I have fourth pair, six kicker. I am thinking about whether or not to represent a flush when he MOVES ALL IN. $6900 into a pot of $3850.

Of course, I was about to fold. But then I thought about it for just a second ...

can anyone craft a realistic argument for calling?

BLdSWtTRs · #2 09-15-2006, 10:32 AM

Unless this is Prahlad in most cases this is a fold.
He could easily have a flush and his bluff might be better than your pair of fours.

samoleus · #3 09-15-2006, 10:33 AM

Bld, think of his river bet size and the fact that I mentioned that he always wanted to get paid off ...

If he is bluffing, what hand is he bluffing with?

samoleus · #4 09-15-2006, 10:35 AM

by the way, he was a very aggressive - but very intelligent, thinking opponent. not prone to stupid bluffs or spewing - but capable of massive bluffs when they are necessary ...

ggbman · #5 09-15-2006, 10:36 AM

Sam,

I have some work to pretend to do before class so i can't go into as much detail as i would like, but in general, i don't feel you can construct a valid argument for a call here because...

1.) He could very often be bluffing with better hands... I played a hand against a friend a while back where he was trying to bluff a river flush card with 22 on a Q4668 board and i pushed with AK high. He said he didn't believe my push and wanted to call, but knew that i would bluff a lot of hands that beat his. The same rational applies here...

2.) You are not getting a good price, he shoved for 2x the pot so you need to be right A LOT

3.) He could easily have a very strong hand himself. He has invested 25% of his stack here. Do you really think that 75% of the time he puts in the other 75% as a huge bluff? Why can't he have the nuts here? If you have one weak pair, your probably are not calling a PSB anyway, so why not overbet and see if you made a smaller flush, which lookds very possible for you. Hell, you might even think about looking him up light because of the size of the bet, maybe with something like a pair of fours [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

IRV · #6 09-15-2006, 10:50 AM

I can't imagine an overpair/set pushing this rvr with that ugly card (ESPECIALLY AGAINST YOUR STYLE). I suspect the opponent could easily bluff this rvr with the lone ace of spades and figures it would be a tough call without the nuts.

Hattifnatt · #7 09-15-2006, 10:53 AM

Looks like a bluff (25%) or the nut flush, maybe K-flush (65%) hoping you have a lower flush that you call with. and maybe something else like 10%.

BLdSWtTRs · #8 09-15-2006, 10:57 AM

The most likely hand for him imo is the nuts.

TheWorstPlayer · #9 09-15-2006, 11:24 AM

In these situations, I always tell myself "I've played my hand exactly like a flush draw. Why would he not be scared that I have a flush? He must have nothing!" Then I call and get shown the nuts.

Edit: he could even have 66. He doesnt' have to have a hand worse than yours to be 'sure' it's no good.

riverboatking · #10 09-15-2006, 11:33 AM

what in the hell is the point of this post?
these types of calls are made based on reads and gut feelings that you get based on YOUR experience playing with the opponent.
these types of calls are not made based on abstract arguements about what someone might do with such and such a hand period.
i've seen bigger calls for more money on scarier boards with weaker hands, and i've seen people lay down non-nut flushes in the same spot, both times anyone talking about the hand without all the necessary info would say thats absolutely crazy.

i sure hope sklansky posts in this thread.